Nathan Chen's 4Lz, 4F-3T attempt

[Crossover]

Nathan recently tried to jump 4Lz, and 4F-3T in SP of a small domestic competition. I don't know why none yet speaks up about the wunderkind's crazy attempt on the rare types of quad.

SP at 2016 Golden West Championships 4Lz< (fall) 4F-3T (fall) 1A

The opening jump, 4Lz with a fall was not fully rotated, but in the following 4F-3T, he not only fully rotated the first jump but also cleanly landed with a nice flow. Too bad about the fall on the 3T though. I thought we're going to see numerous 4F attempts this season only by Shoma, but not any more. Uno has another competitor on 4F (maybe Boyang would join the club) I already began liking Nathan's 4F than Shoma's 4F. At the same time, I think Nathan needs to calm down a bit, so that he only goes for 4F to save his health. His abrupt injury at the Nationals' gala prevented him from debuting internationally as a senior in Boston.

What do you think?

Update: FS at the same event 4Lz 4F 4T / 3Lz-2T-2Lo 3Lo 3F-3T 3Lz (clean except 3A missing in the FS)

 

[Layback11]

Ehehehehe...no.

I applaud his showing guts in going for that, but he has had enough injuries that at this point, he needs to play it safe.

(If 4S is bad for his hip, I would rather see him do 4T and 4F. 4Lz could be bad news.)

 

[Mathman]

I am waiting for his 4F+4T combo.

 

[4everchan]

oyyyy

i usually am excited when i see threads "so and so" attempts (such and such jump)...

but if it has Nathan Chen on the title, i have goose bumps... it scares me... such a young age and already a major injury...

I think he should be patient, and aim for in 6 years.. yes... I have said so... the chances to make the olympic podium in 2018 are slim for him as he hasn't even been to a senior WC etc... etc... rebuild, heal, stay calm and collected, do not overwork yourself... etc.. .that would be my advice... YET... if he is fully healed and coaches/trainors/doctors think it is safe for him to do those jumps, then I respect that too...

I just worry....


regarding the 4F... i wonder why Patrick doesn't try it... his 3F is one of the most beautifully perfect and easy jump ever...

 

[Lysambre]

Not commenting on the 4Lz, because UR and fall.

The 4F wasn't bad, looked fully rotated to me, but I wouldn't say he had a nice flow on the landing. The landing was very low on the knee, which would have been fine if the jump was solo, but it wasn't. The low landing cut off any flow he could have had, so he had to do his 3T from a low point with not that much speed, less than ideal, hence the second fall.

I'll be honest, it's difficult to get excited about these jumps, especially if you consider he then popped his 3A. Also difficult to get excited when he keeps falling on his hips, not that long after having surgery.

Wishing him better future programs though, if only to spare us the fear of seeing him nearly crippled with pain on the ice.

 

[ice coverage]

.... I don't know why none yet speaks up about the wunderkind's crazy attempt on the rare types of quad. ...

I am not complaining that you started a new thread, but ever since last night's SP at Golden West, other threads already have had a lot of discussion of Nathan's jumps.
Just sayin' that "... none yet speaks up" is not accurate. GS members already had been keeping tabs on Nathan's comeback, and he is making things even more interesting than we expected .

My two cents:
I wonder whether he already had been working on the quad lutz and quad flip before his injury at the Nats gala. Wouldn't surprise me.
In his comments to Lynn Rutherford at Champs Camp, he did say that he wanted to avoid injuries through the 2018 Olympics. http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2016/08/26/197645372
I'm hoping for the best. I liked his new SP very much. Go, Nathan :yay:.

 

[Lys]

Not commenting on the 4Lz, because UR and fall.

I'll be honest, it's difficult to get excited about these jumps, especially if you consider he then popped his 3A. Also difficult to get excited when he keeps falling on his hips, not that long after having surgery.

Totally agreed. I'm all for tech upgrading, but quality has to be there as well, and sadly yesterday it wasn't there for Nathan. Maybe in the future, who knows, but so far those two attempts do nothing for me.

Out of the two, 4F was the best one, but only 'cause he rotated and landed it. The little flow and bad landing, tho, caused the error on the 3T (which seems well underrotated as consequence, to me).

While I do respect every skater trying to do hard stuff (and of course they are free to try them whenever and however they want), I get excited about them if I see something that makes me think they are "competition ready" jumps. The jumps here don't fall in this category yet.

 

[Crossover]

Not commenting on the 4Lz, because UR and fall.

The 4F wasn't bad, looked fully rotated to me, but I wouldn't say he had a nice flow on the landing. The landing was very low on the knee, which would have been fine if the jump was solo, but it wasn't. The low landing cut off any flow he could have had, so he had to do his 3T from a low point with not that much speed, less than ideal, hence the second fall.

I'll be honest, it's difficult to get excited about these jumps, especially if you consider he then popped his 3A. Also difficult to get excited when he keeps falling on his hips, not that long after having surgery.

Wishing him better future programs though, if only to spare us the fear of seeing him nearly crippled with pain on the ice.

Your analysis on the 4F-3T would be right and your concern for his health as well. As soon as I read his attempt on the quads, I was thinking like "Was he out of mind? Some said he fell twice, so the attempts were surely not successful". But I felt excitement watching him rotate the four revolutions on 4F in the air, so that jump led me to open the thread quickly. I think 4F, 4T-3T, 3A layout would be more practical for him if he insists on jumping 2 quads in SP.

However, I think this discussion would not be a total waste, because he and his team can get a feedback on such the crazy attempt somehow. He had to sit at home watching his countrymen compete at Worlds because of his injury even though he earned a spot for Worlds and Jr. Worlds together. He was expected to win the JW title and could've earned some extra bonus on home ice as well.

 

[HanDomi]

1. it was the best 4F done ever ( not that there weredone many, lol). Shoma 4F isn't even close on quality to this.

2. If he is doing one of this quads as solo, there must be steps before, and there wasn't any in this program, so hope judges gonna do what they have to do in this situation.


3. It was clear 3A was intended to do just 1A.

4. Still it was gutsy to attempt this, but hope he make sure he can hold on to skate in GP series at least.....

 

[Crossover]

I am not complaining that you started a new thread, but other threads already have had a lot of discussion of Nathan's jumps at Golden West last night.
Just sayin' that "... none yet speaks up" is not accurate. GS members already had been keeping tabs on Nathan's comeback, and he is making things even more interesting than we expected .

My two cents:
I wonder whether he already had been working on the quad lutz and quad flip before his injury at the Nats gala. Wouldn't surprise me.
In his comments to Lynn Rutherford at Champs Camp, he did say that he wanted to avoid injuries through the 2018 Olympics. http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2016/08/26/197645372
I'm hoping for the best. Jumps or no jumps, I liked his new SP very much. Go, Nathan :yay:.

Thanks for the clarification. I meant I thought Nathan's quad attempt was worthy to have an own thread as done on Boyang and Uno's 4Lz and 4F.

 

[StitchMonkey]

The 4F wasn't bad, looked fully rotated to me, but I wouldn't say he had a nice flow on the landing. The landing was very low on the knee, which would have been fine if the jump was solo, but it wasn't. The low landing cut off any flow he could have had, so he had to do his 3T from a low point with not that much speed, less than ideal, hence the second fall.

This touches on one of the reasons I find it hard to get excited about Nathan's jumps. He just does not seem to know how to listen to his body and recognize his limits. I think a more seasoned skater would have recognized the issues you mentioned and done a clean 2T with no fall. But not Nathan... he just tosses himself up into a 3T attempt... it comes across as very much a hail Mary jump in my eyes.

Had he done a 2T after the 4F... id be much more excited actually. If that is what he is capable of... still good job... but he had to go for the 3T.

 

[mcq]

I am actually excited for all this skaters trying new quads, it makes this field more exciting to watch, I am not complaining at all.

Though, with regards of Nathan I have a few thoughts :

1. Unlike Boyang and Shoma who (so far) are still relatively uninjured, I am aware that he had hip injury that was relatively quite severe. I assume his team and himself know best if he is already healthy enough for such demanding layout. However, Sota Yamamoto just recently fractured his ankle again so I think Nathan should be really really careful with his body now so that he will not aggravate/recur his injury.

2. Speaking of jumps, quads are super exciting, yes. I love seeing men land quads. But I feel like the younger up and comings focus so much on quads they neglect the 3A. 3A is a required jump, kids. You can't escape it and there is no point having multiple quads when you bomb your triple axel frequently. It is better to have 1/2 type of good quality quads and a solid 3A than 3/4 type of quads and an iffy 3A. Also, you need to rake in the GOEs too. Having a so-so quad with so-so quality probably worth less point than say, a good quality 3A. I think it would be better for him to focus on polishing and solidifying one type of quad jump at a time, instead of learning 3/4 type at the same time and have none that is of good quality and consistency.

 

[gsyzf]

It looks to me that he is only trying to test new jumps 4F and 4Lz (and program) in this competition. He didn't try very hard to perform this program and he purposely popped the 3A. This is a low pressure competition. If he can't rotate and land 4lz here, it's even less likely he will rotate and land 4lz in higher pressure competitions. Given his failed 4lz attempt, he most likely will replace the 4lz with 4t when the season starts. If he can't do 4f out of steps, he will have to do 4f3t in combinations. Doing 4F is better for his hip than doing 4S.

 

[el henry]

I'll admit, I am not understanding Nathan's approach this year. I know that he is known for his "wow" jumps, and maybe he feels he needs to keep upping the ante to get the wow factor. And that Nathan without jumps would be like Jason without spins or Adam without a Rippon lutz, like who am I watching???

But I don't care how good an athlete he is, how well he has recovered, he is still a human being. The only operation I have personal experience with (from spousal unit), that months after a hip replacement, any orthopod would be *horrified* by those falls. Yes, he is a teenage elite athlete, but the falls can't be good. They can't be. And I can't help wonder if he doesn't want to take it easy because he feels he needs to live up to his reputation. I hope this is not so, and that he trains (and skates) smart.

 

[sarama]

Should Nathan be more careful? Definitely, but since it's his body and his life, I don't think anybody can prevent him from being this reckless. Not even his coach or his parents. It's the same thing with Yuzuru, he keeps getting injured yet he keeps upgrading his difficulty (even though he would likely win anyway). It's a challenge for them, it's what keeps them motivated and going to the rink everyday, it's what makes them great skaters. For most of us it's not worth getting badly injured (even permanently) to perform let's say a 4Lz, for people like them it totally is

I am waiting for his 4F+4T combo.

I'm sure he'll go for it sooner or later!

 

[apgold]

I hope Nathan is able to balance his quad ambitions with his health this season. I would like to see him make it all the way through and not have his career cut short by injuries. I know he talks about most of his injuries being growth related and he's probably done with any growth spurts but he still needs to be careful.

 

[shmay]

Why work on skating skills, speed, and ice coverage when you can just do quad after quad en route to another hip avulsion?

 

[gmyers]

What a bold confident fearless skater and it needs to be encouraged so much.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Why work on skating skills, speed, and ice coverage when you can just do quad after quad en route to another hip avulsion?

He has time to improve skating skills. 22 year-old Jason and sure-as-hell 27 year-old Adam aren't going to get reliable, consistent quads. With proper technique, quads are no more difficult than triples. Nathan and his contemporaries and younger are the future and need to be nurtured.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I don't understand Nathan's approach to his skating career. He was brilliant and extremely promising from a very young age. Yet it seemed his parents and his coaches were not hurrying him through the ranks. He and his team showed patience in his development. Now, he seems to be in a rush to get the most difficult jumps in a hurry, even after suffering a major injury.

I'm all for technical excellence and rewarding difficult skills and risks. However, different individuals take different paths to reach their full potential according to their unique combinations of bodies, talents, and character. I do hope Nathan and his team will be cautious and holistic in his long term development.