Chan fears for skaters' health/quads

[NoNameFace]

How someone supposed to enjoy LP with 6x 7x quad programs? Or is here enyone who will claim that these aren't dangerous for athletes at all?

4x and maybe somehow 5x (but no, its too much already) quads is OK, and there could be and are enjoyable programs (e.g. Yuzuru, Shoma) with them. But more it'd be just "jumping during skating from one end to another".

But I think Jin and especially Shoma are not in the same group with Nathan. Should wait for the next season but so far Shoma is pretty good in presentation.
And couple of years ago Patrick has mentioned Javi's similar programs (and again, agree with that actually) but now, dear Patrick don't you think you also should try something different?
Hanyu is weirdest (in positive way) member of this top-6. İt's really hard to compare him with the others.

Overall, I agree with Patrick and I don't see need in crazy quantity quads until quality and presentation are still important. Don't forget Worlds: if Javi (3Q) could go clean he will be on the podium alongside Shoma and Hanyu. No 5-6 quads, no 4Lz. The only thing that really bothering - it TES-dependent PCS.

I feel it's all in the eye of beholder - different things are appealing to different people. For me, I'd say that I try to look at skaters in the most complex, multi-dimensional way possible and viewing quads as any other elements, not reducing any skater to them, but more like 'reducing' quads to the level of any other element, giving them some 'ordinary' value in this crazy quadness era. I want to see a grace, strength and a beauty in them while executed, like any other jump and see them as major factor of skater's competitive success regarding result, not as a main point of skaters' existence in FS world, especially competitions.

Seeing all men lately, especially those considered as 'top ones' made me looking more for a certain 'substance/structure', individuality in interpreting all rules imposed on skaters; it made me appreciate diversity and embrace the impact of Nathan's cleanly, fiercely skated FS full of quads on par with Jason's FS without quads, but touching me almost physically. They are all competitors - with all best they have - and that should be respected no matter what and will be assessed by judges based on execution; what should not be done by viewers/'fans' is to make those skaters rivals towards themselves more than they already are in competitions and to make one's strength to a point of critic elevating another one. Apologies for off-topic

 

[mcq]

I just quote:


And also they can lower BV, let's say - 8.6 points for 4T, 8.8 for 4S, 9.2 for 4Lo, 9.4 for 4F, 10 for 4Lz, 11 for 4A With BV like that it wouldn't be profitable to have 4-6 unstable quads at LP.

The BV is fine, otherwise it will be like going back to pre-Vancouver days. I am actually against lowering the BV. Maybe they can tweak the GOE marking a bit to reward well-executed jump vs poor-executed one and give it more of a gap, or increase deduction on falls so that it will have less value than triples. But reducing quad BV is not rewarding those who actually manage to do it well and discourage people to do them. The idea for the post-vancouver CoP is the BV of quad should be higher than the BV of a well-landed triple with max GOE because quad is still, after all, harder to land.

 

[MaiKatze]

I do agree that the quad craze will have consequences on the athlete's bodies. But, I also think that quads are impressive jumps and they make the sport look spectacular. And the criticism from Patrick Chan....I like him much more these days, but I think part of his problem is that he cannot get into a medal position with his tech anymore. It must be hard to realize you're 'old news', when once you ruled the sport and always finished on podium. He's been off podium for two Worlds now. The Gold Medal, which he certainly have speculated of winning, is getting out of reach. He would've won Gold with his skates from Worlds easily a few years ago. When falls and stumbles were forgiven because of his heavenly skating skills, which still are the best. He could've speculated Yuzuru messing up and getting the Gold Medal, but there are 5 other guys now. The main rivalry is not Hanyu VS. Chan but, Hanyu vs Fernandez vs. Chan vs. Chen vs. Jin vs. Uno. So a mess up of your main competitor doesn't help you, because 3 other guys ALSO messing up is unlikely. And then there is the problem of bringing himself into a good position initially and then messing up in the free.

Anyway, I'm glad that the field is so close and evened out, and that is thanks to the quads. A Hanyu or Chan domination for another 4 years after Sochi would've been boring. Every discipline in which one skater/pair dominates gets stale after a while. I read somewhere that Nathan Chen doesn't plan a long career anyway. And let's not ignore the fact that Shoma's quads and triple axel are new jumps for him if you look at his long term career. He started skating as a tiny kid, honing is skating skills and wasn't focusing on jumping. Jason Brown is having success taking it slow. It's not all doom and gloom if you're young and quadless.

 

[Camillo]

The BV is fine, otherwise it will be like going back to pre-Vancouver days.

I believe that's the only way to bluntly tell skaters (esp. juniors) and their coaches "ISU really thinks it's not a good idea to have so many quads".

The idea for the post-vancouver CoP is the BV of quad should be higher than the BV of a well-landed triple with max GOE because quad is still, after all, harder to land.

Look from another angle.
3T with max GOE 4.3+2.1=6.4, 4T=10.3 profit 3.9
3S with max GOE 4.4+2.1=6.5, 4S=10.5 profit=4.0
3Lo with max GOE 5.1+2.1=7.2, 4Lo=12.0 profit= 4.8
3F with max GOE 5.3+2.1=7.4, 4F=12.3 profit=4.9
3Lz with max GOE 6+2.1=8.1, 4Lz=13.6 profit=5.5
So even if you reduce BV by 2-3 points, wobbly quads with 0 GOE still will get more points than perfectly executed respective triple jumps.

Maybe they can tweak the GOE marking a bit to reward well-executed jump vs poor-executed one and give it more of a gap,

Yes, they can, but they don't want to, it's pretty obivous when you check protocols and compare it to the video :sad21:

or increase deduction on falls so that it will have less value than triples.

But you said 'quad is still, after all, harder to land', so it would be strange to punish falls on quads so harshly. Vice versa - it's easier to land triples, so let's punish falls and other heavy mistakes on triples more strictly

 

[mcq]

I believe that's the only way to bluntly tell skaters (esp. juniors) and their coaches "ISU really thinks it's not a good idea to have so many quads".


Look from another angle.
3T with max GOE 4.3+2.1=6.4, 4T=10.3 profit 3.9
3S with max GOE 4.4+2.1=6.5, 4S=10.5 profit=4.0
3Lo with max GOE 5.1+2.1=7.2, 4Lo=12.0 profit= 4.8
3F with max GOE 5.3+2.1=7.4, 4F=12.3 profit=4.9
3Lz with max GOE 6+2.1=8.1, 4Lz=13.6 profit=5.5
So even if you reduce BV by 2-3 points, wobbly quads with 0 GOE still will get more points than perfectly executed respective triple jumps.


Yes, they can, but they don't want to, it's pretty obivous when you check protocols and compare it to the video :sad21:


But you said 'quad is still, after all, harder to land', so it would be strange to punish falls on quads so harshly. Vice versa - it's easier to land triples, so let's punish falls and other heavy mistakes on triples more strictly

Um lol nope. That would just bring back all the vancouver debate again like a devil's circle and frankly I completely disagree because it drives the sport backwards. This kind of advancement in tech would always bring out "controversy" just like how Midori Ito was dragged for doing 3A in her days and make ladies skating lose the "prettiness", "artistry" and all about jumps. 3-3 is a standard now and 3A is a thing that only numbers of ladies can do. Don't forget when they remove "figures" and how many skating purists lamented about it and that skating is more about jumps then.

I love seeing all these new jumps, the 4Lz, the 4F, the 4Lo and I don't want to take away the skaters' achievement from doing so by labeling them as inartistic jumper who destroy the artistic part of skating and destroying their own body. Many skaters doing less tech content is injured, so it is unfair to shoulder every injuries on guys doing more quads. Since most of those quadsters are still relatively healthy, let's just wish they stay that way. Every sport has injury risk, it is not just limited to FS and/or men who do many quads.

 

[Camillo]

Um lol nope. That would just bring back all the vancouver debate again like a devil's circle and frankly I completely disagree because it drives the sport backwards.

But limiting the number of quads in LP (up to ~3) or huge deduction for a quad fall will drive sport backwards as well, you know :confused2:

 

[mcq]

But limiting the number of quads in LP (up to ~3) or huge deduction for a quad fall will drive sport backwards as well, you know :confused2:

I never said I agree with the extra deduction or limiting number of quads though? I said it is better than reducing BV, but I said initially that the system is fine as it is. The judges who implement them are the one who needs to consider what they want to see on the ice and to encourage balance between components and tech without limiting skaters who want to go beyond and do more/harder quad jumps. In 2015/2016 a clean Boyang has 80 PCS maximum while a clean Patrick/Yuzu/Javi received 97-98, much more than their BV gap. Hence Boyang put an effort and working on his components and not focusing much on quads early in the season. He is 19, still relatively healthy among the others too. I'd argue Alexei Yagudin hung his skates when he was 23 (partially) due to injuries too and he did less quads in his programs than Yuzuru, Javier or Patrick. So how much is too much quads? It is relative, really.

 

[andromache]

We will have to wait and see where Boyang, Shoma, and Nathan are when they are 25+ years old. Until then, we really won't know the long-term effects on the body and the sport.

(There is Yuzu, who will be older sooner, but individually he alone is not enough to make any determinations.)

I personally like that Patrick doesn't censor himself and expresses his opinions even when people might not like it. Respect.

Also, I lol every time I see so much Boyang love and read about how he is sooooo much better than Nathan, as if Nathan's presentation is trash. Stay pressed, lol.

 

[Nika09]

I feel it's all in the eye of beholder - different things are appealing to different people. For me, I'd say that I try to look at skaters in the most complex, multi-dimensional way possible and viewing quads as any other elements, not reducing any skater to them, but more like 'reducing' quads to the level of any other element, giving them some 'ordinary' value in this crazy quadness era. I want to see a grace, strength and a beauty in them while executed, like any other jump and see them as major factor of skater's competitive success regarding result, not as a main point of skaters' existence in FS world, especially competitions.

I love Men's discipline of FS. Their warrior battle, striving to do more and better. But the route that it takes now and that speed this all moving is intimidating me. Firstly - of course is increasing possibility of injuries. Secondly - is limited PCS. Which considering skating skills, interpretation of music, presentation that I think are as much fundamental in FS as jumps and spins. But how much gap you could get by improving your PCS? 3-5? While one more quad is 8-10 points.
I think the problem is new and upcoming generation due to all this will just give up on second score and will go on just with tec.side. Just for example: Nathan instead of improving his SS and presentation chose add another quad for chance of podium at World's. And it's understandable actually.

Maybe somewhen there will not be notquad jump left and PCS become more important but for now, in closest future IMO possibility of similar QuadPrograms without proper skating skills are very high. I could be wrong though and I really hope i will.

In addition: I prefer different, interesting, unique combinations more than different quads.

But again that's matter of taste and thoughts of course

 

[asiacheetah]

#typical Patrick
Ignoring the mere existence of Yuzuru Hanyu who has the full package today as 'artistic performer' AND great technician.

Also I find it funny how Javi from a skater not worthy to watch his whole program moved into the category of 'artistic performers' on the same level as Patrick himself.

2 years ago:

I think Patrick has an overinflated sense of self performance value. While I can appreciate his skating skills, I've never found his performances particularly exciting or captivating. His upper body is just so stiff. I don't see any changes in facial expression or levels of emotion. He's still a much more polished performer than someone like Nathan Chen or Jin Boyang, but he's been skating a lot longer.

Unpopular opinion, but I'm not a huge fan of Javi's performances either. It seems hammy other than his SP this season, which showed a different side.

But hey what do I know. I didn't follow Men FS until two years ago.

 

[Miller]

The ISU could limit the number of quads in a program but they can't limit the number of quads the athletes attempt in training. We know that f.e. Hanyu is doing tons of quads in training whereas Fernandez is only doing a few. Hanyu is also more slender than Fernandez (and Chan of course). So Hanyu might have a slight advantage here because of his body. But I think that Fernandez' approach is still smarter in terms of possible long term damage. But we'll see although I don't see either Hanyu or Fernandez complaining in a couple of years, they'll just pop their painkillers and go on ... elite sport isn't healthy.

This has to be the key point in all the above, how many times does a skater do a jump in training as opposed to competition? The number done in the latter must be neither here nor there in the overall scheme of things, but then how do you stop the skater doing so many jumps in training, you can't really, only by adjusting other things like base values, PCS scoring and so on, so that the skater concentrates more on these things rather than quads.

One or two suggestions - age eligibility increased - 18 for junior men, 16 for junior ladies i.e. so that more puberty is over. Also athletes like Roger Federer and Serena Williams show that success is possible in the mid 30s whereas at one stage lots of tennis players retired in their mid to late 20s, too many miles on the clock too early.

- PCS increased to match TES scores. Unfortunately some skaters would benefit at the expense of others due to PCS scores being increased 25 to 30% overnight, but more gradual could be OK. Also more accurate PCS judging, or at least what people on this board would regard as more accurate judging. Guess that's more of a different story though.

- relax the Zayak rule. Yes really, or rather only applies to quads for mens i.e. you can always do 2 of any triple, bit like the ladies can always do 2 of any double jump i.e. the number of revolutions before the Zayak rule kicks in increases by 1 for the men compared with the women. It would mean somebody like Nathan Chen could go for for a 6 quad, 2 triple axel routine, compared with the 6 and 1 routine he attempted at Worlds (the Zayak rule meant he had to do this when upgrading from the 5 and 2 routine he did at 4CC and US Nationals). OTOH it would mean that 12 triple routines in 8 jumping passes (including triple-triple-triples) would be possible and up and coming skaters would go through this as they move up through the ranks i.e. they may target quads later on because they're now doing triples rather than 2Ts for example. Does the strain of doing all these triples become as bad as the quads though, or is it the height and coming down from it that does the damage with quads. If it's the latter then maybe allowing more triples, and hence increased base values for all triple jump routines is the way to go.

Just one or two thoughts to include in the discussion.

 

[Tutto]

I do see some negative tone about Shoma in Chan's comments. Shoma is quite artistic, but his jumps are iffy but are generally not caught for pre-rotation or wrong edge.

We don't know if the new generation of skaters are born and grow up with better nutritions and are stronger physically than Chan's generation. Human beings have always been pushing limits. At least, a skater can do lots of quads does not mean that person is skating with pain or put his long term health at risk. Boyang Jin does not seem to have a major injury as far as we know.

In his recent interview Boyang said that he limits the time he practices on ice to 1.5h a day IIRC (or 1.15h) compensating by the quality of training over the quantity and that he believes this strategy has saved him so far from a major injury.
The problem is that not all skaters are such talented jumpers as Boyang. Many have to put in longer hours to achieve the same results. Kolyada whose jumping ability is very impressive nevertheless reported that doing 4Lz repeatedly like 10 or more times during the practice practically disabled him for a day or two with a back pain. He eventually had to limit the number of attempts to three a day as not to compromise his work on other elements. And still he suffered minor back injury and had to have a physio therapy while doing only triples for a month or so leading to the Worlds.

 

[Marin]

In his recent interview Boyang said that he limits the time he practices on ice to 1.5h a day IIRC (or 1.15h) compensating by the quality of training over the quantity and that he believes this strategy has saved him so far from a major injury.
The problem is that not all skaters are such talented jumpers as Boyang. Many have to put in longer hours to achieve the same results. Kolyada whose jumping ability is very impressive nevertheless reported that doing 4Lz repeatedly like 10 or more times during the practice practically disabled him for a day or two with a back pain. He eventually had to limit the number of attempts to three a day as not to compromise his work on other elements. And still he suffered minor back injury and had to have a physio therapy while doing only triples for a month or so leading to the Worlds.

Yuzuru said almost the same recently, he trains 1 hour a day but very intensively .

 

[andromache]

Couldn't these skaters spend 1 hour on jumps/spins and then a couple more hours on stroking/footwork without compromising their physical health?

 

[Interspectator]

Yuzuru said almost the same recently, he trains 1 hour a day but very intensively .

I think he said 2 hours.

 

[Marin]

I think he said 2 hours.

https://twitter.com/yukiya_yuzu/status/853829646638383106

 

[OS]

I think Patrick has an overinflated sense of self performance value. While I can appreciate his skating skills, I've never found his performances particularly exciting or captivating. His upper body is just so stiff. I don't see any changes in facial expression or levels of emotion. He's still a much more polished performer than someone like Nathan Chen or Jin Boyang, but he's been skating a lot longer.

Unpopular opinion, but I'm not a huge fan of Javi's performances either. It seems hammy other than his SP this season, which showed a different side.

But hey what do I know. I didn't follow Men FS until two years ago.

Sorry but I'd have to disagree. Being in control do require certain stiffness (centred core like ballet) and there are many ways to interpret a piece of music beyond the facial expressions, or an emotional one. You show a classically quiet sombre performance by Yo Yo Ma to someone who only ever listens to happy songs by the Bee Gees, they may be bored initially because they are not used to it , but it shouldn't stop them learning about classical music if they are open minded enough, and can learn to appreciate what is a superior version of the same performance, same music....and Vice Versa.

Patrick's best performance (FS in recent years) are very suited to the music in the classic genre, and he deserves the HIGHEST PCS when he delivers. I'd also argue he has also improved more in the PCS criteriors vs his peers in the refinement and subtlety that has not been seen in others, that should absolutely be valued among the connoisseurs of the sport who expect the highest standard of craftmanship within the confines of pure skating movements. For me at least, his FS this year is a complete gem. For starters, it has an original piece of music, and original choreography that doesn't feel reptitive and done for the sake of putting in quads, COP hacked layout for the sake of points scoring. Everything is put together with care and thoughtfulness and developed organically without ever feel 'packaged'.

Patrick's FS programs in recent years all feel like in search of something new and redefining beautiful skating and thus deserve all the accolades it gets. I wouldn't be surprised if it is his programs that last the ages among the skaters, where as Hanyu's FS feels like a marvelous spectacle, the sort of comeback with gravitas only Superstars like Yuzu can do. They should be celebrated for different reasons, but all bring their own unique quality to it.

I just pray there's no injuries this year. With Josh coming back, and Han Yan getting his shoulder issue sorted, we should have a very exciting men's year leading to the Olympics.

 

[Interspectator]

https://twitter.com/yukiya_yuzu/status/853829646638383106

Thanks!
He said '45 minutes and one hour' So that may be either/or OR both with a rest in between?

 

[Marin]

Thanks!
He said '45 minutes and one hour' So that may be either/or OR both with a rest in between?

I thought it was 1h or 45 min but could be 1 hour first session , rest and another 45 min.

 

[Camillo]

I never said I agree with the extra deduction or limiting number of quads though?

Umm, I assumed you considered these mesures acceptable: "Maybe they can tweak the GOE marking a bit to reward well-executed jump vs poor-executed one and give it more of a gap, or increase deduction on falls so that it will have less value than triples."

I said it is better than reducing BV, but I said initially that the system is fine as it is.

I see.

Personally I think the system is not fine and ISU clearly wants to balance TES and PCS but they have no idea how - thus all this PCS inflation, GOE inflation, arguable judging and rash proposals to increase GOE (-5 to +5) or PCS scale, which would lead to even bigger inflation.

Balance of TES and PCS is not the only problem we have here, don't forget technique's deterioration which is encouraged by current judging system. Aliev jumped his 4Lz with 1/2 prer. and safely landed with 1/2 UR, recently Gumennik shoma-ed his first 4F (huge PR, edge pick and then he fell with big UR). Younger skaters adapt this technique 'cause it makes 4F and 4Lz easier: more under control, you have better chances to land it without falling. Probably it's safer for skaters' health than original 'pure' technique, which is a good thing considering our main topic.