Why are there not so many pairs teams left?

[AlexBreeze]

It is for the first time in history I think that we Dutchies can send 2 pair teams, and as far as I know we've actually got them (which I think is also a first)! Not all is woe. They may not be the best teams in the World (they certainly are not) but in my view it's good to see that kind of development in our country.

The second pair doesn't have tech minimums right now, but they're very close to get it.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I dunno what US resurgence adds in terms of hope for other countries, seeing they already dominate men and dance...

Ha ha. The U.S. does not completely dominate men and dance. There are other highly competitive men and ice dance teams internationally that U.S. skaters have to compete with. It's certainly not a slam-dunk.

Resurgence in pairs for the U.S. has been a long time coming and its very welcome and exciting for U.S. pairs fans. Although, there have also been retirements and splits announced, so there will be a need for rebuilding going forward. Canada is also in an even greater pairs rebuilding phase (as well for their singles divisions).

 

[surimi]

Part of the problem for Pairs in terms of attracting skaters is that a lot of the skillset is the same as for Singles, with the additions of the throws/lifts, but it has far less prestige, and you have to share the limelight and the glory with somebody else. Ice Dance attracts skaters who struggle with or just dislike the Singles elements, particularly jumps, so it will always get an influx of participants from that, but these days you need a solid 3-2-2 or even 3-3 plus a 2A to really be competitive in pairs, and that's actually not far off the jump content needed to make it onto the worlds team for women from pretty much any but three or four feds (Japan, South Korea, Russia and the USA at a push - they did send Mariah Bell to worlds with exactly the above tech content, after all).
Even for men, the jump content needed for pairs is only a small step below what Han Yan, Jason Brown and Denis Vasilievs are consistently putting out, and one of those guys is a European medalist, two of them went to the Olympics, one of them making top six...
Add in how dangerous pairs can be, particularly for the women, and there isn't really a whole lot of motivation for moving into pairs for small-fed skaters without intense domestic competition. Realistically, I would expect pairs to continue being fed by only a small number of feds, either because the discipline has some prestige at home (China, potentially Germany depending on how Massot does with the juniors) or because there's a more competitive singles field (Russia, possibly USA, and potentially Japan or South Korea moving forwards).

I don't think the issue is just having to have triples and sharing the limelight. I think finances are affected as well if the pair splits prize money/funding, as I imagine either partner needs just as much money as a singles skater. Also, I'd say splitting due to growth is more likely to happen to partnerships where the guy does throws, twists, and overhead lifts. As a result, as we've heard multiple times, there are so few males willing to do pairs that the female partner's family is often expected to cover most of the male partner's costs to retain him. It's a hard category to skate in...

If the Russians are still banned in the summer, and the Chinese unwilling to send their skaters, I just hope the ISU doesn't trim the pairs GP slots. Instead, they should fill them with the remaining pairs, even if it means inviting weaker pairs than the series normally would. The lesser known pairs could really use the money and the exposure, and could turn those into developing into strong and more secure teams. That's at least what I hope for.

 

[TT_Fin]

Just a few years ago, there were tons of pairs For instance, there were 24 teams at 2021 worlds/28 teams at 2017 and 2018 worlds.. Let's just calm down... the sport is very cyclical to start with, pairs, being even worse. Covid also hit pairs even more. In some countries, like Canada, pairs couldn't train for the longest time... Also, as it takes usually longer to develop good pair teams, after the olympics, there are even more splits and retirements as people have been skating for that much longer.

I still remember 2017 WC. A pair after another skated clean and made PBs, and were happy, but finally many disappointed because almost everybody skated clean and new PBs were not enough for free for many. In those times there were also PB marks, not just SB.

 

[lariko]

The U.S. does not completely dominate men and dance.

That what it looks like to me. States and Japan.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

That what it looks like to me. States and Japan.

Now that all the top dance couples are retiring and Russia isn't competing maybe C/B will be the best. But looking at recent Olympics/worlds it was always P/C* vs Russia for top sports, with H/D* up there and a few other teams. I wouldn't say US dominated at all.
With men Nathan has been up there, Vincent sometimes, and Jason has been solid top 10 without challenging for medal. Nathan has won everything other than 1 GP event, so you can say he dominated - but I wouldn't say US Men in general are dominating. (Even if there are some rising stars)

 

[yyzskater]

Before, pairs used to be for single skaters who could jump a triple or two but couldn't get the full arsenal of jumps. So it was an "easy" switch in search of more success.

Now it seems, pairs is even more difficult than singles given the required level of difficulty in all their elements. For smaller federations with limited skaters, there may be be very little appeal to be a pairs team if there are enough international opportunities to go around.

That being said, I think there may be more boys/men looking to join pairs, especially in bigger feds, as getting a quad seems essential to success and there is still only a small subsect of men who can acquire one.

 

[lariko]

Now that all the top dance couples are retiring and Russia isn't competing maybe C/B will be the best. But looking at recent Olympics/worlds it was always D/H vs Russia for top sports, with Z/D up there and a few other teams. I wouldn't say US dominated at all.
With men Nathan has been up there, Vincent sometimes, and Jason has been solid top 10 without challenging for medal. Nathan has won everything other than 1 GP event, so you can say he dominated - but I wouldn't say US Men in general are dominating. (Even if there are some rising stars)

Nathan always won pretty much and they always had 3 entries, never in question. That's pretty dominant.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Nathan always won pretty much and they always had 3 entries, never in question. That's pretty dominant.

I see Nathan as dominant, but not the US. They did, after all require nebelhorn to ensure the 3rd entry, so it was in question.

Even if they had three entries, that's still not dominant compared to Russian Women for example. (Who consistently took gold medals at every GP event, often had podium sweeps when nothing unexpected happened and mostly occupied top 2 spots, and rarely finished out of top 5 even before the recent generation).

Nathan himself up to now has been dominant. Beyond that, I don't see much. Of course I see Ilia, Camden and a few others in the future being in the question for world medals (and championships), but they won't knock the Japanese men out of contention in the near future imo. Especially with Yuma on the up, and others likely to be up there.
And who knows, when Russia comes back in the equation we might be seeing many challengers. Not to mention the other countries having young talents rising through the field.

Domination by one country in the men's field is something I don't forsee soon. Maybe competitiveness, or domination by one skater. But nothing that we've seen in the woman's field recently or in the past - and nothing like we saw in the men's field in some eras during the past.

 

[lariko]

I see Nathan as dominant, but not the US. They did, after all require nebelhorn to ensure the 3rd entry, so it was in question.

Even if they had three entries, that's still not dominant compared to Russian Women for example. (Who consistently took gold medals at every GP event, often had podium sweeps when nothing unexpected happened and mostly occupied top 2 spots, and rarely finished out of top 5 even before the recent generation).

Nathan himself up to now has been dominant. Beyond that, I don't see much. Of course I see Ilia, Camden and a few others in the future being in the question for world medals (and championships), but they won't knock the Japanese men out of contention in the near future imo. Especially with Yuma on the up, and others likely to be up there.
And who knows, when Russia comes back in the equation we might be seeing many challengers. Not to mention the other countries having young talents rising through the field.

Domination by one country in the men's field is something I don't forsee soon. Maybe competitiveness, or domination by one skater. But nothing that we've seen in the woman's field recently or in the past - and nothing like we saw in the men's field in some eras during the past.

Russia won't come back into equation. It's going to be US vs Japan.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Nathan always won pretty much and they always had 3 entries, never in question. That's pretty dominant.

During the Nathan years for sure, Nathan was a force to be reckoned with. And U.S. men have always had a strong presence in competitive skating. However, U.S. men never necessarily dominated across-the-board. It's just that they've always been competitive and influential stylistically and athletically. Things changed however post 2010 Olympics when the quad became increasingly necessary to even get on the podium. Giving the quad jump overdone points, even with falls was ridiculous, and it did not have the best impact on a number of men's careers, especially U.S. men, who remained competitive, and some of them had quads, but not consistent ones like some men from other countries. That is, not until Nathan Chen.

Since it was the 2010 Olympic gold medal win by Evan Lysacek of the U.S., without a quad, that led to the overvaluing of quads, it's rather fitting that it took a U.S. man, Nathan Chen, to finally get the ISU to modify the overvaluation in how quads were scored. It was also a breath of fresh air to finally see judges deduct points for quads with falls. The main reason scoring was adjusted is because Nathan 'Quad King' Chen could land 5 quads cleanly in his fp, and he had a variety of quads. At that point, other top men had to scramble to catch up. The top guys were only just getting around to performing 3 quads in a fp, usually with errors. So, yes, the Nathan years have been interesting indeed.

Nathan reigned through disciplined hard work, strategy, passion, and dedicated focus, not to mention, superlative technique, as well as humility. It's nice that Nathan and Hanyu respected each other, and thus it was a rivalry to celebrate (aside from some of the attitudes of fanatical followers).

It's looking like Shoma, Yuma, and Ilia will be battling it out going forward. But there will always be other stellar men challenging from multiple countries, including hopefully Camden Pulkinen of the U.S. Camden was hard done by scoring-wise at Worlds, because the judges were apparently not expecting the brilliance with which he performed two clean programs.

 

[Skater Boy]

Ha ha. The U.S. does not completely dominate men and dance. There are other highly competitive men and ice dance teams internationally that U.S. skaters have to compete with. It's certainly not a slam-dunk.

Resurgence in pairs for the U.S. has been a long time coming and its very welcome and exciting for U.S. pairs fans. Although, there have also been retirements and splits announced, so there will be a need for rebuilding going forward. Canada is also in an even greater pairs rebuilding phase (as well for their singles divisions).

I guess you call th domination of usa in skating is here now but let's not be naive having Russia gone helps a lot in women, dance and pairs. But certainly the US is strong overall and probably no. 1 by a mile without Russia and Canada struggling still just to even be competitive.

 

[lariko]

During the Nathan years for sure, Nathan was a force to be reckoned with. And U.S. men have always had a strong presence in competitive skating. However, U.S. men never necessarily dominated across-the-board. It's just that they've always been competitive and influential stylistically and athletically. Things changed however post 2010 Olympics when the quad became increasingly necessary to even get on the podium. Giving the quad jump overdone points, even with falls was ridiculous, and it did not have the best impact on a number of men's careers, especially U.S. men, who remained competitive, and some of them had quads, but not consistent ones like some men from other countries. That is, not until Nathan Chen.

Since it was the 2010 Olympic gold medal win by Evan Lysacek of the U.S., without a quad, that led to the overvaluing of quads, it's rather fitting that it took a U.S. man, Nathan Chen, to finally get the ISU to modify the overvaluation in how quads were scored. It was also a breath of fresh air to finally see judges deduct points for quads with falls. The main reason scoring was adjusted is because Nathan 'Quad King' Chen could land 5 quads cleanly in his fp, and he had a variety of quads. At that point, other top men had to scramble to catch up. The top guys were only just getting around to performing 3 quads in a fp, usually with errors. So, yes, the Nathan years have been interesting indeed.

Nathan reigned through disciplined hard work, strategy, passion, and dedicated focus, not to mention, superlative technique, as well as humility. It's nice that Nathan and Hanyu respected each other, and thus it was a rivalry to celebrate (aside from some of the attitudes of fanatical followers).

It's looking like Shoma, Yuma, and Ilia will be battling it out going forward. But there will always be other stellar men challenging from multiple countries, including hopefully Camden Pulkinen of the U.S. Camden was hard done by scoring-wise at Worlds, because the judges were apparently not expecting the brilliance with which he performed two clean programs.

So, yes, US dominated and the only outcome was Nathan Chen would win save for a rare mishap. And if it’s not US, it’s Japan. That’s exactly what I said. I will revise once I see a man representing Europe on the podium. I don't understand why you need a wall of text about what was happening ten or twenty years ago to state this simple fact.

 

[noskates]

I think many are doing the "woe is me" about pairs in the US. There are several pairs teams out there that will have to step up - but isn't that what a sport is all about? Maybe this is just the incentive they need. We may have a year or two or even a quad where the US doesn't do well but I still believe there are pairs teams can and will find success.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

So, yes, US dominated and the only outcome was Nathan Chen would win save for a rare mishap. And if it’s not US, it’s Japan. That’s exactly what I said. I will revise once I see a man representing Europe on the podium. I don't understand why you need a wall of text about what was happening ten or twenty years ago to state this simple fact.

Because I disagree with your earlier blanket statement, and I outlined the specifics of how I view things, with examples. Yes, there's nothing to argue over because we don't see things exactly the same or describe things the same. The part of my reflections that go into further detail are just me riffing on the topic because when I discuss figure skating, a lot of memories and associations occur to me, which are not necessarily in direct contradiction to anything you said.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I think many are doing the "woe is me" about pairs in the US.

I'm not sure who is doing 'woe is me,' about pairs in the U.S. The original post here was about pairs in general, due to the fact that we are in a transitional period with splits and retirements, and low entries (complicated by the non-appearance of the Chinese pairs and Worlds, and the ban on Russian athletes due to Russia's war on Ukraine). Pairs historically has been a discipline that hasn't been given a great deal of attention and respect.

There should be more of a push to grow the discipline across-the-board internationally. But the dilemma I see is that there aren't enough opportunities for teams to compete in order to develop, and to have incentives and motivation. It had to be devastating for Calalang/Johnson, with their caliber of ability, to have to sit at home through Olympics and Worlds (especially Worlds where it kinda didn't make sense not to field more competitive teams, or to give talented teams the opportunity). This is where the sport needs to be reformed, but the ISU is so stuck-in-the-mud with so many conflicts regarding how rules are instituted that it can be discouraging for fans and for athletes.

I'm sure there are U.S. fans who are understandably concerned with the fact that Calalang/Johnson and Lu/Mitrofanov have split, and it is uncertain whether Knierim/Frazier and Cain-G/LeDuc will return competitively. Losing four* top experienced U.S. teams when three spots have finally been achieved, is not pleasant to contemplate for any U.S. pairs fan. *(Actually five U.S. teams might be lost, due to the dissolution of Liu/O'Shea b/c of Chelsea's head injury). That's an unprecedented situation, and that's why there are many fingers crossed that at least Knierim/Frazier might return. Ashley Cain's head injury makes her return with Timothy much more uncertain.

Still, the original poster wasn't focused on discussing U.S. pairs exclusively.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

having Russia gone helps a lot in women, dance and pairs.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Even had the war not been the cause of "Russia being gone," there were going to be issues and controversy at Worlds regarding Russian female athletes after what happened at the Olympics. It was a more refreshing and competitive women's event without the Russian ladies skaters. Facing facts: there's anecdotal and documented proof that female Russian figure skaters have been given drugs to enhance their endurance and training regimens, and/or forced into questionable dietary practices. While some people have enjoyed watching Eteri's girls rap off multiple revolutions at the expense of their bodies and their competitive longevity, I have never been a fan of Eteri's questionable coaching and training methods. There needs to be a balance between healthy, responsible athletic development and artistic growth. We have not been seeing that balance often enough at the top in women's skating.

The women's division was absolutely fine and wonderful to witness at 2022 Worlds, in the absence of Eteri's girls and their multiple revolutions, and their brittle, nervous, unhappy expressions. Fine, allow the sport to advance athletically, but do it in a responsible manner. For far too long, Russia has used their political clout to stranglehold the sport of figure skating. In that respect, you might as well leave ice dance out of your comment because in recent years, it has largely been about Russia pushing their mediocre ice dance teams to the top, especially when they mainly had Bobrova/Soloviev. Granted that SinKats worked hard and improved, but even then, both SinKats and Stepanova/Bukin have been over-rewarded in the scoring quite often because of politics, not because of their ice dance skills necessarily being superior to teams they have been placed ahead of in recent years. Neither SinKats nor Stepanova/Bukin not being at Worlds made any dent in the competitive brilliance and excitement of ice dance. And the women who competed at Worlds, particularly the top three, were brilliant and effervescent to watch.

So pairs is really the only discipline in which Russian skaters not being at 2022 Worlds made any appreciable difference. But even then, it's not as if the pairs teams who were there to compete didn't perform well at the top, aside from the Japanese team, who seemingly were tired and made too many mistakes. Ashley Cain's issues in the fp, appear to have largely been due to the ankle injury she suffered at the Olympics, not being fully healed.

It would have been nice to see whether Tarazova/Morozov might have been able to win Worlds (in the absence of Sui/Han, since the Chinese federation apparently did not have Worlds on their radar and were only focused on the Olympics this season). I didn't miss Boikova/Koslovskii, who are sometimes over-rewarded. Despite their talent, I also didn't miss Mishina/Galliamov because their programs were not appealing for me this season -- bringing back the same sp did not challenge or enhance their growth, and their fp music choice I found off-putting all season long. M/G are technically brilliant, but they need to be challenged and not coddled and over-adulated. I want to see risk-taking and exciting partnership growth among talented pairs. We saw that quite often with James/Cipres, Savchenko/Massot, Duhamel/Radford, Sui/Han, Tarasova/Morosov, and Stolbova/Klimov, et al. This season, I would certainly add Knierim/Frazier and Cain-G/LeDuc to the exciting partnership growth category.

The Russian pairs teams I'm really interested in seeing are the younger ones coming up, some of whom are going through splits and re-pairings. Meanwhile, Knierim/Frazier and Cain-G/LeDuc (esp. in the sp) were competitive at Worlds and Olympics, performing to their best ability, which was exciting to witness. I hope that Knierim/Frazier might decide to come back and further explore their partnership, but they may feel that they've achieved their mutual goals, and thus we might not see them return.

 

[lariko]

There is far more Russian women than Tutberidze’s school train. My favourites save for Trusova come from different schools. And I missed men more than I missed women, because I am not a big fan of Scherbakova and Khromykh who would have been at Worlds and I wanted to see Kolyada

There are so many pairs, particularly junior that I miss, but also Akopova/Rakhmanov… and I adore, just adore B/K. I also always wanted to see P/Kh with their crazy acrobatics. Now I won’t…

Senior dance is the only disciple that didn’t really look different to me.

I miss Russian figure skaters and I don’t see any stranglehold Russia has on figure skating. Cancelling Russians is not any improvement for my viewing pleasure and makes competitions next year feel sad.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I wanted to see Kolyada

I missed Kolyada at the Olympics. I still don't understand why they didn't send him to the Olympics. Was he planned to be sent to Worlds instead? If so, too bad. As I said, Tarasova/Morosov I missed seeing at Worlds, and I would include Kolyada (if he was slated to compete). I would have liked to see Kolyada overcome his unnecessary glitches -- he's a beautiful skater. That's why it was huge seeing Camden Pulkinen overcome his past nerves and skate with such precision and confidence at 2022 Worlds. That's why I truly enjoyed seeing T/M overcome their past nerves to nearly win gold at the Olympics.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I missed Kolyada at the Olympics. I still don't understand why they didn't send him to the Olympics. Was he planned to be sent to Worlds instead? If so, too bad. As I said, Tarasova/Morosov I missed seeing at Worlds, and I would include Kolyada (if he was slated to compete). I would have liked to see Kolyada overcome his unnecessary glitches -- he's a beautiful skater. That's why it was huge seeing Camden Pulkinen overcome his past nerves and skate with such precision and confidence at 2022 Worlds. That's why I truly enjoyed seeing T/M overcome their past nerves to nearly win gold at the Olympics.

I think they did originally, but he got COVID and wasn't able to go.