What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in pairs?

[ImaginaryPogue]

WHAT WILL THE 2011/2012 SEASON BRING US IN THE PAIRS?

2009/10 was all about repudiating the narrative of the quad. The 2010/2011 season found the narrative stutter stepping into its new mode as we really didn’t know what the story would be until AFTER Worlds.

Rivalry or Domination?
I don’t know what happened to Aliona and Robin in the Olympic season. It’s not merely that they weren’t consistent – fact is, they weren’t that consistent in their winning World championships prior. But something happened. That TEB LP seemed to really throw them off their stride and even with the rechoreographed gem that we saw with Out of Africa they never really regained their form. They only won two international events (SC and Nebelhorn). Their last season that bad was the 05/06 season. It’s like not being the unqualified class of the field scared them. I dunno. Whatever it was, they got their mojo back and in a BIG way this season. Even when they weren’t perfect, that style and pizzazz was back and just thrilling to watch. The throw salchow at the end of their World performance of the Pink Panther program was delicious (Aliona’s fist pumping and Robin’s “yeah, that’s us” expression...perfect).

Meanwhile, the return of Russia to the map, in a big big way, with Voloszhar/Trankov. But will it be an actual rivalry? V/T need to add difficulty (and they can) as well as improve the PCS (ditto) whereas I wonder if S/S can/will actually improve in any area. I suspect that the Gold medal Russia wants the most is pairs (an uninterrupted OGM streak from 1964-2006 will do that to ya!). One thing that strikes me as interesting is that we never really got the feeling that Volosozhar was unhappy competing with Morosov. Obviously, their personal relationship complicated things, and that they ended (their skating partnership) amicably is a tribute to both, but part of me wondered just how she would adjust to this new pairing. Well, doubts responded to and repudiated. Perhaps my favourite moment at Worlds was watching this team when they weren’t skating. Maxim’s unalloyed delight alone makes this a treasure of a team (his cheers, fist-pumps post skate, the high fives, the way he sorta grabs Tatiana to bring her in for the hug after the LP); Tatiana in the KnC with her arms around both Stanislav and Maxim (very, “my two brilliant boys” type gesture, with charm to spare). (Also, totally rewatching their SP right now. I’ll revisit their LP more because of the moment, but I think the SP is better, if not quite as well skated)

Europe’s next breath
Is it just me, or are the 2nd tier European teams actually quite good now? Hausch/Wende, Berton/Hotarek, Kadlecova/Bidar, and Zabijako/Kulbach all had qualities I liked. I could see all appearing in the top ten at one point in the future, if not immediately. Kadlecova /Bidar in particular – they had this confidence that comes from believing they belonged up on that stage (loved some of their transition moves and that step sequence in their SP was terrific). I look forward to their development (if somewhat worried they fall into difficulties do to size similarities). And while Takahashi/Tran aren’t.. you know, European, they are part of the next generation of teams. I expect to see them on the podium in the future (especially if Narumi learns to rotate a little quicker). Again, that short program.... easily the greatest pairs SP of the year (that, or P/T)

What’s next for China?
Okay, so question one: Sui/Han, real thing or not? Question two: Zhangs... do they come back and if they do, at what level? Question three: how long will P/T be expected to carry the water should Sui/Han not be the wunderkinds their scores suggest them to be?

My thoughts.

1. No, not the real thing. Indeed, I think S/H represent COP at its worst. They’re exciting to watch, and it’s nice to see a team push the technical boundaries. But they’re messy, have no sense of aesthetics and their musicality is juvenile at best, puerile at worst. Compare them to the other two junior teams on the podiums this season, and you see a stark difference. But more than that, their technical issues will only be improved if she gets stronger/bigger, but I suspect their ability to do those eye-popping, high value elements will suffer if that happens.
2. No idea. I really have no idea why they so suddenly dropped out of sight during the Olympic season. They were a team that was off the podium exactly once in a four year time frame, to the team that missed out three times in one season. I really can’t imagine a team surviving that kind of dumping.
3. This question is more about wondering which teams other teams are coming up, or is the Bin Yao pairs school hitting a major rut. I actually enjoyed the two teams at Worlds that we saw – maybe they’ll grow into contenders post-Sochi.

North America.... A tale of two countries
Canada: I’m very curious to see who ends up on the podiums next season and the top two in the end. More disappointing than losing the second slot in ladies was not getting that third spot in pairs. Duhamel/Radford, as the ranking skaters in the last two international competitions probably have the inside track to that gold medal at Nationals. By going for Flips/lutzs as well as the 3-2-2, they’ve got a huge base value advantage over the rest of the field (National/International) and will likely see their PCS increase next season as they jell. Moore-Towers/Moscovitch had a weird season – remember, they were substitutes for D/D at SC, and went onto the GPF thanks to two strong performances. But the judges grew less enamoured as the season progressed (they ended up with their worst score of the season at Worlds for their LP). And then there’s Lawrence/Sweigers. They’re the team I’m most excited for, actually. They’re the youngest and show the most program creativity. It took me a while to warm to Van Helsing (blame the fact that at NHK 2009, he fell during a lift) and they definitely have a lot to work on.

Then there’s Dube/Wolfe. When people talk about D/D’s issues, they focus on her problems, which was a little unfair because there were definitely things he could do to improve. But they seemed like a terrific match for each other during their peak (07/08 season). But the suddenness of their fall out and the final injury problem was obviously too much for them to handle. How do D/W (heh) develop? Could they make a play for the Canadian team come next season (and thereafter?)

USA: I hope Marley/Brubaker and Donlan/Speroff improve to the level where they’re one-two at Nationals. As much as I enjoy Evora/Ladwig (they have some lovely qualities) they don’t have the technical stuff to really keep pace with the world’s best and I expect them to be overtaken. And I hope the best for D/C. I’m not instantly against this pairing, but I also don't know what to expect.

 

[gmyers]

I wonder what V/T have to do to overtake S/S. Maybe better programs could get them higher PCS which could lead to more GOE on their technical elements. Do a throw triple like S/S throw triple flip. They have two seasons to be the number one team before the Olympic season. Kavaguti and Smirnov won 2 world bronze medals but as the number one Russian team at the 2010 Olympics they didn't deliver. Worse than her fall on a throw triple was his stumbing and not doing the second 2A of a two 2A sequence. I am just interesting in seeing where they go and if they really fall behind Bazarova/Larianov. Then there is I/M who made the GPF along with B/L but had a bad nationals. Oh and Moskvina's other team (or Dmitriev's) Gerboldt/Enbert. 4th at COR and 4th at Russian nationals and 4th at Euros.

If MTM were a balloon they deflated all season long. I don't know why though. Even at Skate Canada they had mistakes but then the air went out. Maybe because of D/R. I want them to have really good programs. I like their jump content. Bold.

P/T made mistakes on jumps at worlds. They also were stronger at the beginning sputtered at the end. It was a longer season than usual which may have hurt P/T and helped V/T but didn't have much of any effect on S/S! Sui/Han may do better next season but she is going to grow. She even be younger than what her documents say.

The U.S. had a team that placed 6th at worlds and of course that team no longer exists. I would like I/B to come back!

 

[evangeline]

I wonder what V/T have to do to overtake S/S. Maybe better programs could get them higher PCS which could lead to more GOE on their technical elements. Do a throw triple like S/S throw triple flip. They have two seasons to be the number one team before the Olympic season.

Getting better and more creative programs is absolutely the #1 thing V/T must do to overtake S/S. What really sets S/S apart from the majority of the pairs field is that their programs actually have ideas and aren't just the usual connect-the-dots fare that is the typical pairs program. V/T's programs this year were pretty much connect-the-dots, which was somewhat acceptable since they are a new pair, but I really hope Morozov will give them something good next season.

Also, V/T could work on the "two shall skate as one" quality. As good as they are already, they at times seemed like two singles skaters during their programs this season (e.g. during their footwork).

 

[pangtongfan]

S/S skated two clean programs at Worlds which they hardly ever do anyway. I dont think V/T have a huge amount to worry about to be honest. They will probably improve and S/S probably wont have many competitions like Worlds. I would like to see a rivalry between both teams since I would like to see a great fight for the Sochi gold especialy after the dissapointment for S/S in Vancouver, but i wouldnt be surprised to see V/T dominance which could lead to S/S retiring if they dont feel they are even in the fight for Vancouver gold. I would rather see a big rivalry on top between the two though.

I think P/T will hang around for now but not sure if they stay for Sochi. The Worlds SP and beating a clean S/S will be a boost for them but they struggled on the side by sides all year. As long as they stay they are for sure medal threats though.

I wonder what happens with Kavaguti & Smirnov. I hope they can make a strong comeback and keep fighting after this season. Hopefully the Russian fed. tries to largely support both teams, but I am not sure if that is too likely.

The Zhangs are done. Stick a fork in them as far as being contenders ever again, even if they return, which I doubt.

Sui & Han are overrated. Once she grows they are finished. I agree with who said they are an example of all the worst of COP. I think once Pang & Tong retire the Chinese pairs are out of the elite for awhile.

Of the North American teams I think Duhamel & Radford are the only ones with potential to be a top pair in the future. They have alot of work to do though.

I would like to see Bazazova & Larionov take the step up and become real medal contenders at Worlds next year, which they arent yet. They seem to be coming along nicely though. They also need to look behind them in Russia with alot of strong teams coming up though.

 

[FlattFan]

Of the top pairs, I like K/S the most and S/S the least. I find S/S programs repugnant.
Hopefully K/S will stay.

Of the second tier pairs, I was hoping to see more of Y/C. But I guess D/C will fill that soft spot.

Mervin really needs to drop Narumi to advance. I would take Caitlin and Mervin over most of the top pairs. They just seem right together.

 

[blue_idealist]

I think the main rivalry will be between S/S and V/T, with some improvement by V/T. P/T will still be a factor too, but I would give the first two teams the edge. I don't thinK S/S can really improve that much, besides on their consistency. They're already pretty much perfect artistically, and the only thing I can think of that would give them a real edge is adding SBS triple lutzes or something like that, and I'm not sure if they can even do those. Unfortunately for them, I think Kavaguti and Smirnov will kind of fall off the map and maybe Bazarova and Larionov, possibly even Gerboldt and Enbert, will start giving them a real challenge (that is, if Bazarova and Larionov are alright as a team, I thought I heard something about them having problems with their relationship as partners?). I'm not really seeing Iliuschechkina and Maisuradze as a dominant Russian team yet, as they're rough around the edges. Speaking of rough around the edges, that's what I'd call Takahashi/Tran and Sui/Han, two teams that I'm not really too fond of yet, especially T/T. I don't think they're going to shoot up the world standings that fast. Umm, for the Zhangs, I don't know what to say. I guess if they do come back, they'll probably be in the top 5 but probably not be challenging for a podium spot. Those podium spots will be really hard for anyone to take unless they are S/S, V/T, K/S or P/T.

I think Duhamel/Radford will probably win the Canadian title next year with Moore-Towers/Moscovitch in second, but Lawrence/Swiegers COULD take the spot if one of the top two teams messes up. Yeah, it is a shame about that third pairs spot because L/S are so good too. I don't think Dube and Wolfe will make the world team, but could make the national team. For the Americans, I don't really want to see Denney and Coughlin win the title and I don't think they will, because consistency problems aside, Evora and Ladwig have the experience over D/C. I'm not even sure if D/C will beat Marley/Brubaker. Since I haven't seen Donlan/Speroff skate, I can't really comment on them.

Hmm, who else is there? The other Europeans.. Hausch/Wende and Berton/Hotarek are pretty good, but not podium material for the worlds yet. I feel sorry for Kemp and King since they seem to be slipping. Kadlecova and Bidar show promise but IIRC one of their SBS jumps was a double so they're going to have to change that in order to move up a lot.

 

[pairsfan2]

As far as the Canadian pairs go, I expect D&R will take the title next year. They have maturity and experience, and now with a full season together under their belts, should start to separate themselves from the rest of the pack. I think one of the best battles will be between MT&M and L&S for the second spot on the World team. Paige & Rudi improved a great deal last season, and with their big personalities and big tricks they’ll give Kirsten & Dylan a good run for their money. It’s too bad we weren’t able to get three spots for Worlds next year so all three teams could go. They’re all such decent people and good friends too that it will be a shame to have to leave one team behind.

Dubé & Wolfe shouldn’t have any difficulty making the national team, mainly because our up and coming teams are still so young. I would slot them in 4th. The other great battle will be between Hole & Johnson, Jones & Gaskell and Purich & Schultz for the final spot on the national team. Kaleigh & Adam struggled a bit last season when she filled out, but being a tall team they have a really nice look on the ice and as well as innovative choreography and unique lifts. Brittany & Kurtis have improved a lot under Lee Barkell, and once Brittany has matured enough to have the strength to do the 2A and 3toe they will be contenders. At Canadians this year the announcers on Skatebuzz commented on how much she’s starting to physically resemble Katia Gordeeva. I’m really excited to see how Natasha & Ray do this season too and hope that Skate Canada gives them one of the host spots at Skate Canada. She is quite the little firecracker and already very muscular. I can see her growing into an Aliona Savchenko type.

 

[mousepotato]

Kavaguti and Smirnov won 2 world bronze medals but as the number one Russian team at the 2010 Olympics they didn't deliver. Worse than her fall on a throw triple was his stumbing and not doing the second 2A of a two 2A sequence. I am just interesting in seeing where they go and if they really fall behind Bazarova/Larianov. Then there is I/M who made the GPF along with B/L but had a bad nationals. Oh and Moskvina's other team (or Dmitriev's) Gerboldt/Enbert. 4th at COR and 4th at Russian nationals and 4th at Euros.

You do realize that K/S had only been together 3 1/2 years when they competed at the Olympics? Maybe it was the pressure of only being 2.50 points away from an Olympic a gold medal; I think it was Moskvina's fault for changing the choreography from a quad to a triple minutes before they were to skate. They also were 1.45 away from a world bronze medal in 2008, 0.13 points away from the world sliver medal in 2009 (they should have beat the Zhangs) and less that one point away from the world silver in 2010. Don't even get me started about the judging in their LP in 2007. They are much better than they get credit for and are still improving. V/T or S/S should not let their guard down.

B/L will have to wait until K/S retire before they overtake K/S. They couldn't even do it when Smirnov fell on footwork in the short and Kavaguti falling in the free.

I/M shouldn't be written off either, they had a horrible nationals and G/E were flawless, don't expect that to happen at most competitions. IMHO G/E are not that great.

V/T will change costumes, music and choreography but unless they add a 4LzTw4, they have pretty much peaked with what they can do. Her posture maybe good but they won't win with that alone and Trankov is not improving even with Tatiana. Some people just choose to overlook his jumping flaws and poor throwing posture.

I think the NA teams will change so much this season I will have to wait to pass judgment until Worlds 2012.

 

[blue_idealist]

I think K/S are a little underrated because they seem to lack some look of connection on the ice that other top pairs seem to have. She seems really.. remote. Unfortunately, it could also be the fact that he's white/muscular, and she's Asian/tiny, which is obviously nothing they should truly be faulted for and something they can't change.

 

[FlattFan]

K/S were robbed at this year Euro Champ. If they become more consistent, I think they are unbeatable. They always come across as fragile and ready to crumble, and that reflects in their PCS. Even with great programs, their PCS are still lower than the top 3.

 

[bekalc]

V/T will change costumes, music and choreography but unless they add a 4LzTw4, they have pretty much peaked with what they can do. Her posture maybe good but they won't win with that alone and Trankov is not improving even with Tatiana. Some people just choose to overlook his jumping flaws and poor throwing posture

Trankov had a good track record jumping wise in the past except for the Olympics. He mentioned in an interview that skating with Tatiana he had to change his jumping approach he was use to approaching it with more speed.

Also Trankov recently mentioned that he and Tatiana do 3/3 sequences in practice.. And as for his posture in throws what about Smirnov's poor twisting technique, Yuka's loud blades etc.

 

[pangtongfan]

K/S were robbed at this year Euro Champ. If they become more consistent, I think they are unbeatable. They always come across as fragile and ready to crumble, and that reflects in their PCS. Even with great programs, their PCS are still lower than the top 3.

Unbeatable if more consistent? When have K/S ever managed a 140+ scoring LP which the current top 3 pairs all have.

Still I would like to see them atleast get a top 2 finish at Worlds at some point before they retire. They are too talented to have never been better than bronze at Worlds.

I am not sure what their future prospects are like with the rise of V/T though, and with S/S and P/T both planning on staying in as well.

 

[mousepotato]

I think K/S are a little underrated because they seem to lack some look of connection on the ice that other top pairs seem to have. She seems really.. remote. Unfortunately, it could also be the fact that he's white/muscular, and she's Asian/tiny, which is obviously nothing they should truly be faulted for and something they can't change.

I don't think they look any stranger together than dark skinned Robin and blond (yet carrot colored) Aliona or Tatiana trying to copy Aliona's look down to her L4 make-up.

Trankov had a good track record jumping wise in the past except for the Olympics. He mentioned in an interview that skating with Tatiana he had to change his jumping approach he was use to approaching it with more speed.

Actually he didn't, the Olympics wasn't the only time he has fallen...

here are a few...

#1
#2
#3

Also Trankov recently mentioned that he and Tatiana do 3/3 sequences in practice.. And as for his posture in throws what about Smirnov's poor twisting technique, Yuka's loud blades etc.

"in practice" is the key; I will wait to see it in competition, both S/S and K/S have already done it.

The problem with K/S twist is her fault she has never done it well with any of her partners and he has. Yuko's loud blades? Have you seen them live, you can hardly hear a thing, they are one of the best for not scratching. They still have things they can improve on unlike teams like P/T who K/S have beat in the past......they have pretty much done all they can do.

Unbeatable if more consistent? When have K/S ever managed a 140+ scoring LP which the current top 3 pairs all have.

Have S/Z? No they never broke 140, so they aren't a great team? S/S just broke 140 this year. Only a hand full of teams have got over 140. Even K/S were only 0.77 points away in only 3 1/2 years of being together.

Progression of Highest Score

1. Aliona SAVCHENKO / Robin SZOLKOWY: WC 2011: 144.87
2 Qing PANG / Jian TONG: Olympics 2010: 141.81
3 Xue SHEN / Hongbo ZHAO: Olympics 2010: 139.91
4 Yuko KAVAGUTI / Alexander SMIRNOV: EC 2010: 139.23

Before this year S/S were below K/S; and V/T just got over 140, which would have been lower if the judges had taken a deduction for Trankov stepping out of his 3S.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

mousepotato, you mention K/S' mistakes in why B/L will never beat K/S until they retire. Of course, it's worth mentioning in that vein that they lost to them by less than three tenths of a point, and they weren't perfect either - they had a fall in their long program.

And really, if you're gonna use their 3 1/2 year record as a defence, lets just point out that V/T have had exactly one year together and have already peaked higher at Worlds.

In fairness to K/S, I think they're on the right track. They had the program of the year, bar none, with their Clair de Lune LP. His presentation of her is wonderful (I do think they have on-ice connection, to be honest), and if Moskovina stops emphasizing the tricks and lets them come naturally (without so many gimmicky exits), they'll be contenders. But V/T have beaten K/S twice in their head-to-head competitions.

 

[bekalc]

Actually he didn't, the Olympics wasn't the only time he has fallen...

here are a few...

#1
#2
#3

Thats not a lot of times in Maxim's long career.

"in practice" is the key; I will wait to see it in competition, both S/S and K/S have already done it.

Thats not the point. Your saying that even though they have both been together for only a year, are incapable of improving technically. I"m pointing out one thing that they both think they can add to their line up, which would be a big technical trick. They have mentioned others. They can do harder choregraphy, more transitions. Maybe work on a harder throw.

I'm just trying to point out the incongruity of you saying that K/S have "only been together 3 1/2 years" but they can still improve technically. But V/T who have only been together for a year you don't see where they can improve.

 

[bibi24]

News article 2 days ago about the 3 Chinese pairs, they all appeared at store opening ceremony,
http://news.sina.com.tw/article/20110524/4431294.html

- P/T were resting back home in Harbin, and returned to Beijing in preparation for the new season. They'll travel to Canada on the 28th to work on a new free program with Lori Nichol. Tong said last year was a long season (many competitions for them since other two teams were out), so it was nice to finally get a chance to rest.

Tong said they don't plan on competing in the upcoming season, but if they feel themselves in good condition, they won't rule out entering one or two international competitions. So far they've received 5-6 invitations to perform in ice shows, as for which ones to participate in, Tong said they'll have to see how things go.

- Z/Z are hopeful about the new season. Zhang Hao said he's pretty much healed, but still can't bend his injured finger all the way. They can practice and perform normally now, but said still needs to be careful not to jam his finger during elements, otherwise it might break again.

Though their programs for last season never made a debut in competition, they'll be traveling out of the country next month to work on a new free program, in order to make their comeback to competition.

 

[pangtongfan]

I like K/S and would like to see them get it all together and win a major title or Olympic medal in Sochi (if that is even possible at this point for them). However I think mousepotatoe is somewhat overly optimistic about their situation. First off being together 3 years by Vancouver is not that short a time, teams that have been together less time than that have had great success. V/T were together less than a year and have already won World silver, eclipsing K/S best result ever.

I also dont see how one can gaurantee B/L will never pass K/S until K/S retire. They nearly beat them at Worlds, and as previous poster stated they didnt even skate perfectly either. They are much younger as a pair overall, they have only been back together for less than 2 years because of his suspension, and lets face it they are much more likely to have alot of improvement left than any of the top 4. I am not saying they will for sure pass K/S or crack into the medals, but it would seem silly to discount.

And how would it be virtually impossible for V/T to improve. They have so many things they can still improve, especialy when it comes to the PCS. Their programs could be alot more challenging choreographically, and their oneness as an overall pair could still improve by leaps and bounds with more time together. They could learn harder throws considering how solid their pair elements are already.

 

[mousepotato]

mousepotato, you mention K/S' mistakes in why B/L will never beat K/S until they retire. Of course, it's worth mentioning in that vein that they lost to them by less than three tenths of a point, and they weren't perfect either - they had a fall in their long program.

And really, if you're gonna use their 3 1/2 year record as a defence, lets just point out that V/T have had exactly one year together and have already peaked higher at Worlds.

Let’s talk about V/T “only” being together for one year; look at who their previous partners were. Some people would like to think they had to start from scratch or take on a junior, but in reality they are both Olympians, National Champions and have got 4th place at worlds. Their past partners have not been given enough credit as if Tatiana and Maxim did it all alone. AND they both had Ingo and Oleg as coaches. If Tatiana went with Smirnov or Szolkowy and Maxim went with Aliona or Qing their results would be just about the same. Not true with most other pairs.

Who was Smirnov’s former partner? What did they get in 2006 before him and Yuko teamed up? So to compare a team like K/S after one year to a team like V/T after one year is ridiculous.

They may have one silver in their first 12 months but that is a two level improvement from where they were with their previous partners. Also, it's worth mentioning K/S were only 0.13 away from a silver in their 3rd season together (and less than one point in last year’s) Also K/S were the reason Russia got to send two pair to the Olympics.

Personal Bests:

Total
K/S EC 2010 213.15
V/T WC 2011 210.73

Free Skate
V/T WC 2011 140.38
K/S EC 2010 139.23

Shore Program
K/S EC 2010 74.16
V/T WC 2011 70.35

B/L did very well in the short but with Smirnov’s fall on footwork so they didn’t only get a deduction for the fall but they got negative GOE for the element as well as lower PCS. It wasn't like he just fell randomly like Y/C, he fell on an element and got hit hard for it. The two teams were hardly equal going into the free. Neither team performed well in the free yet K/S still beat them in PCS by over 3 points. B/L almost has to hope someone messed up as big as K/S did to get ahead and they didn’t even win when they did mess up. If K/S had performed it like they did at the EC they would have scored around 69 or 70. Can B/L beat anyone, sure it’s possible but they would need to change pretty much everything about their team starting with the coach.

Thats not a lot of times in Maxim's long career.

Of course it's not but was that all there were? I didn't check all the protocols or videos.

Your saying that even though they have both been together for only a year, are incapable of improving technically. I"m pointing out one thing that they both think they can add to their line up, which would be a big technical trick. They have mentioned others. They can do harder choregraphy, more transitions. Maybe work on a harder throw.

I'm just trying to point out the incongruity of you saying that K/S have "only been together 3 1/2 years" but they can still improve technically. But V/T who have only been together for a year you don't see where they can improve.

I think they can improve by how many points? B/L can get maybe 20 points more but do you honestly think V/T will reach 160? He already said he will never try a quad throw, they are too dangerous; so they can do a harder throw or L4Tw but even if they get all perfect scores...how much more is that per element? And that is if they perform it perfectly, a big if.

I hope they try new things in all areas but to think we will see something really spectacular much over what you have already seen, remains to be seen.

K/S or other teams are in a different boat. Smirnov's former partner wasn't Maria Mukhortova and they weren't together for 8 years. Yuko's former partner was not Maxim Trankov, far from it, so K/S didn't start on a level playing field as V/T. That is why I think K/S can improve from where they are now. Also don't forget K/S were plagued with injuries this season, took 3-4 months off this summer and withdrew from one competition, so they are not going to be on par with previous years. I believe I read they are even keeping their long program for this season because of it.

First off being together 3 years by Vancouver is not that short a time, teams that have been together less time than that have had great success.

Let’s look at 2010:

S/Z 5th at their Olympics (6th season together) took 16 seasons to win gold
P/T 9th at their first Olympics (6th season together)
S/S 6th at their first Olympics (3 seasons together) Savchenko was 15th with Morozov
K/S 4th at their first Olympics (4 seasons together)
Z/Z 11th at their first Olympics (3rd season together)
D/D 10th at their first Olympics (3rd season together)
L/H 9th at their first Olympics (4 seasons together) Annabelle got 12th with Archetto
M/T 7th at their first Olympics (7 seasons together)
V/M 12th at their first Olympics (7 seasons together) they were 8th at their second Olympics.
E/L 10th at their first Olympics (8 seasons together)

 

[pangtongfan]

I brought up how long K/S had been together in conjuction with your ignoring that V/T were only together less than a year and you are already saying they can hardly improve anymore literally while K/S supposably still have oodles of growth left. If you are going to potray K/S as being some green newbies, then V/T winning silver in their very first season together surely must be a very significant result. Anyway I know you were talking about the Olympics but the 4th season of K/S is already passed, the 5th season has too now, we are moving onto the 6th next and counting....

And many of the teams you listed like Dube & Davison, Volosozhar & Morozov, Evora & Ladwig, Langlois & Hay, and even Mukhortova & Trankov were never or were never going to be real top pairs with that much success, even though D&D did win that lone bronze at Worlds once, so they arent a good basis for comparision if we are talking about the top pairs, including K&S. D&D and M&T were the only one of those pairs that ever had a hope of being on a major podium at any point really.

The Chinese pairs are also a unique case. Those 3 pairs were basically the pioneers who took what was a nothing program before and turned it into the World superpower. Of course they were not going to reach the very top right away.

 

[mousepotato]

If you are going to potray K/S as being some green newbies, then V/T winning silver in their very first season together surely must be a very significant result.

You seem to have the impression that V/T just strapped skates on a year ago, if that were true the silver would be very significant but both V/T had made significant progress on the world of skating before they got together, each being 4th in the world, you seem to be forgetting their former partners and career.

Smirnov's partner on the other hand was Ekaterina Vasiliev, a singles skaters who's first partner was Smirnov, the best they did was 6th at Jr. Worlds in 2006. Where were M/T and V/M at this time? Kavaguti's former partners were okay but they best they did as pair was 15th at the US Nationals (with Patrick) and 13th at Senior worlds (with Markuntsov). By the time K/S got together in May of 2006 they were nowhere near the other two teams in terms of experience including V/T now.

They weren't even with Moskvina until September of 2006 and only had 3 competitions their first season (Cup of Nice, Cup of Russia, Worlds.) You are comparing their careers side by side and don't seem to be taking in consideration their backgrounds. You must be choosing to ignore those glaring factors.

And many of the teams you listed like Dube & Davison, Volosozhar & Morozov, Evora & Ladwig, Langlois & Hay, and even Mukhortova & Trankov were never or were never going to be real top pairs with that much success, even though D&D did win that lone bronze at Worlds once, so they arent a good basis for comparision if we are talking about the top pairs, including K&S. D&D and M&T were the only one of those pairs that ever had a hope of being on a major podium at any point really.

Yet you assume after 3 1/2 years together and considering who their former partners were that K/S would do any better? Being 2.50 points away from a Olympic gold medal after the short and 4th overall is far more impressive than an silver world medal after a year considering where all four came from. If you can't see that, you never will.

The Chinese pairs are also a unique case. Those 3 pairs were basically the pioneers who took what was a nothing program before and turned it into the World superpower. Of course they were not going to reach the very top right away.

Again you assume K/S should be at the top in a few short years just because they are Russian, but you don't expect the same from anyone else like V/M, M/T, D/D, E/L or H/L, that hardly seems fair. K/S getting 4th at their first Olympics is better than any pair in 2010 so there is no reason to think they can't get a medal in their second Olympics just like the rest of the medalists. Who knows what will happen three years from now V/T or S/S may not even be around.