Do we overrate skaters of past eras?

[Mathman]

However, Janet's performances are quite often worshipped for qualities that are, as gkelly points out, anachronistic constructs on the viewers' part. In this respect. they are like the mummified remains of a community ancestor that, through a sustained process of creative mythologizing, now represent a semi-divine being who was once 8 feet tall and could breathe fire.

There were giants in the earth in those days.

Your post is so cool I hate to stick my nose in it, but anyway…

No, I think that changing times really has brought about a change in what is most valued in skating.

There is no modern skater who has the posture and carriage of Dorothy Hamill -- nor cares that she does not. Or even knows what you are talking about when you tell her, for God's sake stand up straight, girl! (I am standing straight!) This is an example of something that used to inspire ohs and ahs and has subsequently passed from the scene.

When Lori Nichol was working with Michelle Kwan Lori held up Janet Lynn as an example and told Michelle to "skate like Janet Lynn." Michelle didn't. I am quite sure that Michelle never figured out what Lori was talking about. What Janet Lynn brought to the table had by that time been superseded. Michelle went to work on her triple toe/triple toe, developing her own style presentation-wise. Something lost, something gained.

By the way, did you notice that Janet Lynn did a one-foot Axel in her U.S. Nationals program posted above? Nowadays a skater could not waste a jumping pass on such an adornment.

 

[Mathman]

PS. Although now that I think about it, a skater could do 1-foot Axel + half-loop + triple flip with +1 GOE and get 6.22 points. Or she could do 3F+2T with 0 GOE for 6.3 points.

 

[gkelly]

PS. Although now that I think about it, a skater could do 1-foot Axel + half-loop + triple flip with +1 GOE and get 6.22 points. Or she could do 3F+2T with 0 GOE for 6.3 points.

No need for the half loop. One-foot axel lands on the back inside edge -- in theory the flip could take off directly from the landing of the axel.

More likely would be one-foot axel-triple salchow.

Which is currently worth less than triple salchow-double toe. Change the rules to give a bonus to the second jump in combination, and then it would be worth more.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The rules would need to specifically give a bonus for doing a one-foot axel in combination as well, otherwise the value of the single axel would just be too low. Would be nice if that move was actually worth what it really should be worth. It's very difficult and has an interesting look.

 

[dorispulaski]

Even if your characterization of the current situation were true (and I don't think it is), do we really want skating to be taken over by a World Wrestling Federation marketing mentality?

Maybe the ISU should add a tag-team event.

And what do you think the Olympic Team event is

I hesitate to post on this topic.

Once a skater retires, their value to me is based on the number of times and number of different programs of theirs that I routinely watch on youtube. It is, oddly enough, not based on whether I was a big fan of the particular skater when they were competing, or how that skater scored in any given event.

It is based, solely, on whether I enjoy watching their routines enough to type Skaterx 1988 or whatever into youtube's search box and watch a video.

First, I seldom rewatch a program of a skater that is actively competing-I'm waiting for their next competition!!! :yay: I might want to watch a routine that is not from their current season, but I do that less often.

Mao & Yuna aren't retired yet, so I almost never watch either of them on youtube, except to watch their current competition skate. I won't be able to tell you how they rank on my personal watch list until a couple years after they retire.

Chances are, I will never watch either of them again. My tastes for rewatching are 1. Dance 2. Men's 3. Pairs 4. Ladies

But I don't know.

I really didn't like Bestemianova & Bukin while they were competing because they kept beating my personal favorites at the time, but these days, there are several programs of theirs that I rewatch.

OTOH, I really liked Todd Eldredge back in the day, and I never rewatch his programs. I am much more apt to rewatch Rudy Galindo's 1996 performances when he beat Todd Eldredge at US Nationals.

When I rewatch a program, I do so because there is something about that skater (or team), skating that particular program that is like nothing else I've ever seen, so I rewatch.

So what I personally value is uniqueness.

From this era, I can already tell you I will definitely rewatch Dai's performances and Jason Brown's.

Of more recent ladies, I am more apt to rewatch Stephanie Rosenthal than Yuna Kim, but I'm guessing I might watch Bond Girl occasionally (and I'll still wish she skated her Arirang LP cleanly so that I could rewatch it) I might rewatch Mao's Mary Poppins exhibition. I'll know better in 2 or 3 years.

OTOH, I can still get a charge out of watching Dorothy Hamill's Celebrex commercial, just for the purity and carriage of her basic skating.

 

[Robeye]

The rules would need to specifically give a bonus for doing a one-foot axel in combination as well, otherwise the value of the single axel would just be too low. Would be nice if that move was actually worth what it really should be worth. It's very difficult and has an interesting look.

Here's a possible thread game, then: for the purposes of ginning up a public hullabaloo, everyone suggest what you think are the most promising one-line marketing personas, for current skaters, WWF Smackdown-style. (Poodlepal has shown the way in his post above)

 

[pangtongfan]

I like that there are some skaters who stand the test of time. It would be a shame if that didnt happen. Janet Lynn clearly stands the test of time, as does Midori Ito. Kwan does in North America, not sure if she does Worldwide or not. Only time will tell if Kim (or Asada) fall into that category or not.

 

[Robeye]

There were giants in the earth in those days.

Your post is so cool I hate to stick my nose in it, but anyway…

No, I think that changing times really has brought about a change in what is most valued in skating.

There is no modern skater who has the posture and carriage of Dorothy Hamill -- nor cares that she does not. Or even knows what you are talking about when you tell her, for God's sake stand up straight, girl! (I am standing straight!) This is an example of something that used to inspire ohs and ahs and has subsequently passed from the scene.

When Lori Nichol was working with Michelle Kwan Lori held up Janet Lynn as an example and told Michelle to "skate like Janet Lynn." Michelle didn't. I am quite sure that Michelle never figured out what Lori was talking about. What Janet Lynn brought to the table had by that time been superseded. Michelle went to work on her triple toe/triple toe, developing her own style presentation-wise. Something lost, something gained.

By the way, did you notice that Janet Lynn did a one-foot Axel in her U.S. Nationals program posted above? Nowadays a skater could not waste a jumping pass on such an adornment.

You're talking about at 2:09 of this performance, right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbO1jsBWeFY

That was a truly gorgeous skate, and not even remotely viable in modern competitive skating.

One thing I will say about the attractiveness of the olde days: it looks like you could customize, to personalize, the element layout, to make it a tool of individuation, to an extent that is just not possible today, given the technical requirements. There is not much that is free in the Free Skate anymore, IMO.

OTOH, the range of expressive movement that is considered acceptable is, I think, much greater today than it was back then. One sees a similar trend in dance over the same time period.

 

[Robeye]

And what do you think the Olympic Team event is

When they allow skaters to perform piledrivers on their rivals, or throw the sucker punch to the throat and heart, then we can talk.

Chances are, I will never watch either of them again. My tastes for rewatching are 1. Dance 2. Men's 3. Pairs 4. Ladies

My preferences are 1. Ladies 2. Men 3. Dance 4. Pairs
And never the twain shall meet, it looks like.

When I rewatch a program, I do so because there is something about that skater (or team), skating that particular program that is like nothing else I've ever seen, so I rewatch.

So what I personally value is uniqueness.

I do, too. I'm a fan of Yuna because, aside from the technical prowess, there is something really unique in the way she moves, and the effects that this creates. I think I've probably said it before, but if i were to look at a bunch of anatomically accurate stick-figure animations of skaters doing their thing, I'm pretty sure I could identify Yuna's within a very short period of time. I'm not sure that this can be said of a lot of skaters.

And it's not just the use of arms, although, in agreement with Jeff Buttle, Yuna is sui generis in this aspect. (She seems to take advantage of every possible point of articulation, the torso, neck, shoulders, elbow, wrist, even the individual fingers, in an astonishingly graceful and musically meaningful way. Check out her WC Les Mis and focus on this quality only. It really is, as Buttle calls it, hypnotic. It's better than a lava lamp, for me ). It is the combination of that upper-body fluidity and the lightning-bolt lower-body elan.

Everywhere one looks in her movement, at successively finer levels of detail, there are seeming contradictions that resolve into harmony. Her upper-body movements are precise yet relaxed, her lower body powerful yet languid.

Without having seen it, one could very well think that the effect would be a visual contradiction, and therefore dissonant. But it's not, and Yuna's ability to embody these qualities in a seamless way is one of the keys to "getting" her aesthetic appeal (which many people quite clearly do, if we admit into evidence the fact that she enjoys the very highest components scores, across the board).

OTOH, I can still get a charge out of watching Dorothy Hamill's Celebrex commercial, just for the purity and carriage of her basic skating.

Is that on Youtube? I can't seem to find it...

 

[gkelly]

One thing I will say about the attractiveness of the olde days: it looks like you could customize, to personalize, the element layout, to make it a tool of individuation, to an extent that is just not possible today, given the technical requirements. There is not much that is free in the Free Skate anymore, IMO.

Yes, there was no such thing as well-balanced program rules until the mid-1990s. And even then they were just suggestions for the first few years.

Limits on repeating the same jump over and over started in 1983 (Zayak rule).

So there was a general idea that variety within a program was a good thing, but no means of enforcing it. Some skaters did a great job of showcasing their strengths and unique skills. Others were less blessed and it was more a matter of minimizing/avoiding weaknesses.

Now the "free" program rules have gone too far in the other direction. I do think there can be ways to put more freedom and variety between skaters back in the free program while still allowing for meaningful point-based comparisons. But the ISU isn't consulting me.

OTOH, the range of expressive movement that is considered acceptable is, I think, much greater today than it was back then.

Especially in the men's event. Toller Cranston has spoken about being chastised for raising his arms above his shoulders as "unmanly" -- I once interviewed a choreographer who had been a less elite skater in a slightly earlier who complained about the same thing.

One sees a similar trend in dance over the same time period.

Do you mean stage dance or ice dance?

 

[Robeye]

Gkelly: I meant stage dance.

 

[gkelly]

Thanks.

I've only had one or two courses on dance history. Care to elaborate?

Here's a skating champion from the early 1970s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daBiEb6Zcyc
How would folks compare his artistry with the top skaters of the early 2010s?

 

[dorispulaski]

Robeye, I can't find the commercial I'm looking for. It was Dorothy skating with a group of children on a pond., and all she was doing was simply stroking & radiating joy.

There's one for Vioxx, but it's not the same commercial-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT-Knjo8Bn0

This one does not hit me the same way.

I'm just not a particular fan of the ladies, any of them, past or present. If I have a preference, it would be for ladies with particular powerful skating skills.

I really don't enjoy hyperflexible spin positions-they make my old bones ache just to look at them, so I was never a big fan of Sasha's.

I have found Yuna almost painful to watch, particular when she gets her feet into very unattractive positions in spirals. (She has worked on reducing this aspect of her skating since Vancouver, thank goodness, and trying to point her toes a bit more and have some turnout.)
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10500000/KIM-yuna-kim-10541425-500-673.jpg

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Yu+Na+Kim+Skate+America+FozHL1W-lkMx.jpg

But then I tend to watch the feet and legs and the glide of the skating stroke most, and I wouldn't even know most skaters had fingers, unless they were doing something jarring or discordant with them, like a severe case of paddle hands. If Yuna's use of her hands & arms is special and unique, I would be the last one to notice.

I also am not a fan of anyone's sideways leaning spin-all of them make me feel mildly seasick. Yuna's too.

 

[miki88]

The level of detail Kwan and Lynn had in their movements was just beyond anything we see in ladies today. It wasn't just upper body movements to get levels but their whole bodies seemed to move in harmony with the music.

I feel a big reason why past skaters are more re-watchable is that the programs were just so much more interesting compared to now. Even the best programs today tend to be on the predictable side. We know when the step sequence is coming and that most of the time a program ends with a spin. Back in the day, it was more unpredictable and there was more variety. Even programs that should be considered quite bad were entertaining because the skaters were improvising, which is something that is very hard to do given the stricter rules now.

 

[Mathman]

When they allow skaters to perform piledrivers on their rivals, or throw the sucker punch to the throat and heart, then we can talk.

"You talking to me? I'm the only one here, so you must be talking to me."

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/47316000/jpg/_47316949_plushenko-still512x288.jpg

"*****, please. I'm from Detroit."

http://www.northwestohio.com/upload...issa czisny1.jpg?w=440&h=330&aspect=nostretch

 

[LiamForeman]

Late to this convo. It is hard to compare current and old, older, and oldest skaters. Janet Lynn Nowicki does seem to transcend her era, she was certainly not over-rated. Peggy Fleming always seemed so slow and awkward, except for that gorgeous layback, yet she was the standard of her era. And Dorothy wasn't really all that in 76, though she improved immensely.

After this new judging system, I've found it difficult to have a favorite, though Cohen and Arakawa are the exceptions. It is a different sport now. I am not really much of a fan of Yuna, Mao or Caro, I find their lines incomplete and distracting, and sometimes with Yuna downright awful. (Thanks for those images, Doris!! EEK!)

I almost compare it to tennis. I can spend HOURS watching old 70s McEnroe and Navratilova on Youtube. But it doesn't seem like they are DOING anything. I prefer a Serena Williams that responds to a 120 mph serve by slapping back a 130 mph return! Were Mac and Martina 'over-rated'? I don't think so. The sport just changed. Equipment improved.

 

[Mathman]

That was a truly gorgeous skate, and not even remotely viable in modern competitive skating.

To me, that pretty much frames the question. Fifty years from now, which will be more admired? A "truly gorgeous skate" or a performance that was state-or-the-art for 2014?

I won't be around to collect my winnings, but I bet that in the year 2100 more people will be calling up John Curry's 1976 Olympic free skate on direct-to-brain-tube than Patrick Chan's 2014 skate. (Sorry, Patrick -- prove me wrong. )

 

[Ven]

It's hard to admire someone's skating when they fall on the ice all the time.

 

[Mathman]

I'm a fan of Yuna because, aside from the technical prowess, there is something really unique in the way she moves, and the effects that this creates. I think I've probably said it before, but if i were to look at a bunch of anatomically accurate stick-figure animations of skaters doing their thing, I'm pretty sure I could identify Yuna's within a very short period of time. I'm not sure that this can be said of a lot of skaters.

And it's not just the use of arms, although, in agreement with Jeff Buttle, Yuna is sui generis in this aspect. (She seems to take advantage of every possible point of articulation, the torso, neck, shoulders, elbow, wrist, even the individual fingers, in an astonishingly graceful and musically meaningful way. Check out her WC Les Mis and focus on this quality only. It really is, as Buttle calls it, hypnotic. It's better than a lava lamp, for me ). It is the combination of that upper-body fluidity and the lightning-bolt lower-body elan.

Everywhere one looks in her movement, at successively finer levels of detail, there are seeming contradictions that resolve into harmony. Her upper-body movements are precise yet relaxed, her lower body powerful yet languid.

Without having seen it, one could very well think that the effect would be a visual contradiction, and therefore dissonant. But it's not, and Yuna's ability to embody these qualities in a seamless way is one of the keys to "getting" her aesthetic appeal (which many people quite clearly do, if we admit into evidence the fact that she enjoys the very highest components scores, across the board).

This is all true.

 

[Mathman]

It's hard to admire someone's skating when they fall on the ice all the time.

Patrick is not going to fall. This men's event is shaping up to be the greatest quad-a-thon since 2002, when the LP podium did 7 quads among them. Back to the future!

To Doris P. and Liam F. Yuna's feet don't look so bad in those pictures. You can't point your toes in skating boots -- maybe flex your ankles a little. Here's old club-foot Michelle in a heart-stopper.

http://www.realclearsports.com/blognetwork/rcs_sidelines/Michelle Kwan 1992.jpg

The main difference is that MK has the sense to wear white boots (honoring the legendary Sonja Henie ) with her tights stuffed down into the tops, avoiding the "I broke my ankle and it didn't set right" look.

To Robeye: Some day your grandchildren will ask, "Why do you watch those old dinosaur tapes of Yuna Kim over and over? Check out our new fave, Quintessa the Quint Queen." And you will reply, "Nonsense! Yuna Kim was eight feet tall -- I saw her with my own two eyes!"