I feel a bit sorry for Ashley Wagner...

[cheerio2]

Even though the rules were technically on the books, they need to be applied consistently in order to ensure that athletes are fully aware of exactly what the selection criteria are. In other words, it DOES matter what the USFSA's historical actions are, and that historically they have never done this, because their actions give an impression of how they makes these decisions and athletes may rely on that impression.

For example, my friend encountered a situation a while ago where she was routinely sending in her mortgage payment to the bank 2 or 3 days past the contractual due date, but the bank never penalized her for it. Then the bank randomly did start to penalize her for it. We learned that apparently, the bank was NOT legally allowed to do that (even though the due date was in the contract), because the bank's ACTIONS of routinely accepting her late payments without penalty was considered a implied "waiver," and if the bank wanted start penalizing her for late payments according to the contract, the bank needed to NOTIFY her first that it was going to do that.

 

[ice coverage]

Max Aaron also had a ton of sponsors as well.

AFAIK, Max has one corporate sponsor? Liberty Mutual Insurance.

Edea Skates has used Max's image on a big ol 'poster (in its booth at Italian Nats and U.S. Nats), but I don't know if Edea really sponsors him.

As for current sponsorships for U.S. men, almost all of them went to Lysacek: Ralph Lauren; P & G; Citi; etc.

 

[noskates]

Gahhh - I was not going to post in this thread again but there seems to be an issue that WE the fans were not warned of this. I keep saying the skaters KNEW it was a possibility. Heard that directly from a coach BEFORE the women skated the final. Just because we did not know about it and just because the commentators were not hammering it into us does not mean it hasn't been run by the skaters repeatedly. And - again - even Mirai knew this was a possibility before the decision was announced.

I think we're all beating a very, very dead horse!!! (where's that emoticon when you need it!)

 

[wootie]

Getting this thread back on topic!!!

Actually, as someone posted earlier, I suppose Ashley has been very lucky. She emerged during a time when the field of American ladies was pretty thin. Despite the fact that Ashley isn't the most graceful or inherently talented skater, she was able to become national champion twice. Had she been skating against Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, hell even a healthy Alissa Czisney, she probably would have been that skater that was perpetually in 3rd or 4th place at Nationals. So, I guess for a skater of her talents, Ashley come of age and peaked at the best time possible. It's just too bad that it isn't happening during her Olympic season.

 

[ForeverFish]

Okay, I'm just gonna offer my own two cents here.

I think I've made it pretty clear that I'm a die-hard Gracie supporter, but let's be reasonable -- in all of the competitions they've skated in together, Gracie has beat Ashley ONCE. Ashley's international PB is still 6 points higher than Gracie's. I find it rather disturbing, really, that the same people who were touting Ashley as the US' best hope for a ladies' medal in Sochi are now sending her down the river in favor of Gracie, who's apparently more "attractive"?

The USFSA stated back in JULY what the Olympic selection criteria were, so I'm not sure why everyone is crying bloody murder now -- to me, it smacks of a conspiracy-eager but uninformed public. I'll say it before and I'll say it again: Ashley shouldered the hopes of the US ladies for the better part of three seasons, continuously worked to improve both of her marks, considered it a "debt repaid" when she helped earn 3 ladies' spots for the Olympics, and showed that you don't have to be the most inherently talented skater to be successful. I feel incredibly sorry that she'll probably have to deal with the ridiculous accusations of corruption and racism for the rest of her competitive career, especially since even her own federation has pretty much thrown her to the wolves.

All I can say is that she's handling this with far more class than the fanatics and the Olympic selection committee -- and that she's very, very lovely in her own right.

 

[R.D.]

There are two things here.

MOMENTUM - Gold has it. She has steadily improved in every competition this season thus far, while Wagner basically hit near rock bottom last week. Will this be a factor?

PEAK - Has to be a concern for Gold. Hopefully Boston wasn't it and her best is still to come, because we sure need it. As for Wagner, as usual she has done better early in the season but let's see. She's on the rebound...tough to shake off, but stranger things have happened in the past.

 

[Layfan]

Has to be a concern for Gold. Hopefully Boston wasn't it and her best is still to come, because we sure need it. As for Wagner, as usual she has done better early in the season but let's see. She's on the rebound, but typically this is when we see what champions are made of.

Not a concern. She's young. She's energetic. She's got Frank Carroll as a coach.

 

[ForeverFish]

Not a concern. She's young. She's energetic. She's got Frank Carroll as a coach.

Plus, after Nationals, she's got enough confidence to cover her for the next couple seasons. She might have come off as "cocky" in the press conferences, but I'll take "come at me" Gracie over deer-in-headlights Gracie any day of the week.

In any case, I very much doubt that Frank will let her wind down as much as she's saying.

 

[R.D.]

The USFSA stated back in JULY what the Olympic selection criteria were, so I'm not sure why everyone is crying bloody murder now -- to me, it smacks of a conspiracy-eager but uninformed public.

And whose fault is that? You can't expect casual fans/Olympic fans to know or read the criteria ahead of time. Only diehard fans care about that stuff.

USFS' chance to lay out and carefully explain the criteria was during the press conference announcing the Olympic team. They had an opportunity to lay out their decision making process when asked the question and what did they do? Referred to Wagner's "body of work". Oh yeah, "body of work" eh? And exactly what is that supposed to mean? Without EXPLICIT criteria laid out, people are going to make assumptions. It's just the way it is. Unfair to Nagasu, but also unfair to Wagner to put her on the defensive like this. The controversy was just USFS' lack of clear explanation blowing up in their face, that's all. Now, some would have had pitchforks out anyway, but without anything to go on, folks' speculations spread like wildfire and eventually some begin to believe it.

 

[ForeverFish]

^You'd think, though, that at least a handful of the reputable news sources (NYT, WSJ) would have bothered to back their smack and check on the criteria, which were and still are posted on the USFSA's website. The federation is partly to blame for not trying to resolve the controversy while they could still control it, but when the information is readily available and was circulating all over social media and on the NBC broadcast in the aftermath of the decision, the fact that the criteria weren't spoon-fed to the public shouldn't be a valid excuse for ignorance, and certainly not an excuse to crucify a skater who had nothing to do with her selection. Plus, I'd be willing to bet that the casual fans you mention wouldn't have watched the Olympic press conference in the first place, and probably based their assumptions on hearsay and unfounded rumors.

 

[AlexaD]

The media didn't care to go above and beyond to educate the uneducated skating fans out there about the criteria. Controversy creates more page hits, more discussion, more revenue. The media was probably loving it.

I feel bad for Ashley, she has a lot to deal with heading to the Olympics. I am sure she is kicking herself for not going out and skating like she has in the past. But what is done is done, and I hope she can still have a good Olympic experience.

 

[R.D.]

I am sure she is kicking herself for not going out and skating like she has in the past.

No time to do that. That's the worst thing she could do at this point. Gotta move forward. As stated, what's done is done and hopefully she can focus on the task ahead with minimal distraction. I think leaving social media could work in her favor (if she sticks to it).

 

[cheerio2]

I'm not sure what part of "arbitrary application of the rules" people do not understand. Even if athletes know "the rules" that technically, the USFSA can basically do whatever they want, that does not help them plan their season. In an Olympic season, should they be trying to peak near the Grand Prix or near Nationals, if they want to be on the team? That's a huge decision, but the USFSA's random decisionmaking gives athletes no guidance whatsoever.

 

[pangtongfan]

Okay, I'm just gonna offer my own two cents here.

I think I've made it pretty clear that I'm a die-hard Gracie supporter, but let's be reasonable -- in all of the competitions they've skated in together, Gracie has beat Ashley ONCE. Ashley's international PB is still 6 points higher than Gracie's. I find it rather disturbing, really, that the same people who were touting Ashley as the US' best hope for a ladies' medal in Sochi are now sending her down the river in favor of Gracie, who's apparently more "attractive"?

The USFSA stated back in JULY what the Olympic selection criteria were, so I'm not sure why everyone is crying bloody murder now -- to me, it smacks of a conspiracy-eager but uninformed public. I'll say it before and I'll say it again: Ashley shouldered the hopes of the US ladies for the better part of three seasons, continuously worked to improve both of her marks, considered it a "debt repaid" when she helped earn 3 ladies' spots for the Olympics, and showed that you don't have to be the most inherently talented skater to be successful. I feel incredibly sorry that she'll probably have to deal with the ridiculous accusations of corruption and racism for the rest of her competitive career, especially since even her own federation has pretty much thrown her to the wolves.

All I can say is that she's handling this with far more class than the fanatics and the Olympic selection committee -- and that she's very, very lovely in her own right.

Classy of you to come to Ashleys defense, especialy in the comparision to Gold, being that you are obviously a fan of Gold. However I think it is for very good reason Gold is touted as a stronger hope for a medal than Ashley. Ashley seems to have almost hit the peak of her abilities. This year she even added the vaunted difficulty triple-triple. Yet it still hasnt helped her scores any as I even made a thread about earlier. She still seems capped at a 67ish short and a high 120ish long. That doesnt cut it if you want the big event medals. With the young Russians improvement it is becoming increasingly worrisome if she will ever win a World medal, even with the inevitable retirements. An Olympic medal in a packed field will be a hercules feat for her. Especialy comping off the psychological blow of Nationals, although she is a fighter so might recover from that.

Gold is exceptional in atleast one thing- jumping and overall technical ability (excellent spins too). Wagner is a good all around skater who doesnt stand out for a single thing really. You need that to make your mark at the top level. Gold now has shown great artistic improvement, has the political mastermind Frank Carrol in her corner, and seemingly top backing of the USFSA. The scores at Nationals for Wagner were surprisingly low even with her mistakes. One would have thought they would hold her up enough to make the team with those skates and for sure place her 2nd in the SP, but they didnt. Golds scores there were extremely high, and indicate Wagner having had little to no hope to beat her at Nationals even had she gone clean. Politics aside though Gold has already shown potential to skate a 70+ short program (Skate Canada where she nearly reached 70 and scored higher than a clean Ashley could at the GPF) and shows strong potential to score a 130+ long program internationally, which Wagner has never done.

Anyway I think the U.S will split them in the Team Event, and give both girls a chance for a medal there. If they use Gold or Wagner in both we will see where the USFSA favor now clearly lies.

 

[minze]

Classy of you to come to Ashleys defense, especialy in the comparision to Gold, being that you are obviously a fan of Gold. However I think it is for very good reason Gold is touted as a stronger hope for a medal than Ashley. Ashley seems to have almost hit the peak of her abilities. This year she even added the vaunted difficulty triple-triple. Yet it still hasnt helped her scores any as I even made a thread about earlier. She still seems capped at a 67ish short and a high 120ish long. That doesnt cut it if you want the big event medals. With the young Russians improvement it is becoming increasingly worrisome if she will ever win a World medal, even with the inevitable retirements. An Olympic medal in a packed field will be a hercules feat for her. Especialy comping off the psychological blow of Nationals, although she is a fighter so might recover from that.

Gold is exceptional in atleast one thing- jumping and overall technical ability (excellent spins too). Wagner is a good all around skater who doesnt stand out for a single thing really. You need that to make your mark at the top level. Gold now has shown great artistic improvement, has the political mastermind Frank Carrol in her corner, and seemingly top backing of the USFSA. The scores at Nationals for Wagner were surprisingly low even with her mistakes. One would have thought they would hold her up enough to make the team with those skates and for sure place her 2nd in the SP, but they didnt. Golds scores there were extremely high, and indicate Wagner having had little to no hope to beat her at Nationals even had she gone clean. Politics aside though Gold has already shown potential to skate a 70+ short program (Skate Canada where she nearly reached 70 and scored higher than a clean Ashley could at the GPF) and shows strong potential to score a 130+ long program internationally, which Wagner has never done.

Anyway I think the U.S will split them in the Team Event, and give both girls a chance for a medal there. If they use Gold or Wagner in both we will see where the USFSA favor now clearly lies.

And that is the problem Ashley has. She is not known for anything in particular
Michelle Kwan: Aristry unmatched by her fellow skaters and good technically
Sasha Cohen: Aristry, spins Musicality
Kim Yuna: Technical power house, consistency and musicality
Carolina Kostner: Good Techique, skating skills and interpretation
Mao Asada: Aristry, spins and 3A
And the new ones
Julia: consistency, BV, and spins
Gracie: Jumps and technique

When people talk about Ashley, there is nothing you can point out that, she does better than the other skaters. Now Ashley has very good qualities, but nothing that make her stand out.

 

[ice coverage]

That is true; we are talking with hindsight. But I do maintain that even if there was a possibility that the policy could be used for ANY SKATER, be it D/W, Ashley or otherwise, that the sooner they would have mentioned it the better.

Murphy's Law is always a factor and when it comes to PR you have to think on those terms. It would have not been harmful to mention it early - if Ashley finished in the top 3 anyway it would have been a moot point. But suddenly pulling it out the day after the Ladies final made it look underhanded. Remember, perception is reality to some.

But let's say none of that happened (which it didn't), they still could have avoided a major backlash by providing a clear, outlined explanation of what happened and how Ashley fit the selection criteria. I get other people's points that they were trying to avoid controversy, but I think that strategy backfired on them.

Let's face it in the world of social media/24-hour news cycle, people will have knee jerk reactions....USFS needed to do what it could to mitigate such reactions.

That's the problem when any niche sport that is run by folks that were "before social media"... we see it in dog mushing as well - they don't embrace the technology and then are shocked to find that others are using it against them. The USFSA has knowledge and does use the internet and social medial, but they aren't as proficient as you or I might be. They're racing to catch up, but with the way things change so quickly in how social media works and is used it's like running on a treadmill that you have no control over the speed...

Re social media:

For the record, @USFigureSkating tweeted at least one "red flag" (so to speak) on Saturday BEFORE the Ladies' FS.

Remember, this is not an Olympic trials. The Olympic team will be chosen and announced in two press conferences tomorrow. #Boston2014
2:02 PM - 11 Jan 2014
https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/422126423944736769​

Regarding what the media knew, when they knew it, and 20/20 hindsight:

I think it is very possible that experienced reporters on the skating beat (Hersh, Rutherford, Whiteside, and the like) in fact were well aware of the selection criteria before Nats began -- and that the JOURNALISTS made their own individual judgments that the criteria were a non-story and thus never published any mention or discussion of them. Such judgments would have been reasonable, given that no one was expecting Wagner to place fourth.

Has any member of the skating media made a public complaint that USFS was guilty (whether before or during Boston Nats) of under-informing them?? I am not aware of any such complaints.
Or did any of them express surprise in Boston that Nats alone did not automatically determine the Olympic team? No, AFAIK.
When aggrieved -- for being left in the dark about something, for instance -- the media usually are not shy to speak up.

(As I posted previously [maybe in another thread?? they've all become a blur now ], the USFS press releases re Boston Nats said all along -- as far back as 2012 and as recently as the start of the competition -- that it was the "final qualifying event" for the Olympics. The official press material pointedly did not say that it was the one and only qualifying event.)​

ETA:

Looking back at old tweets at this late date, I just came across the one below (which was posted on Sunday morning, hours before the Olympic team announcement at noon). @nrarmour retweeted it back then (again, before the Olympic announcement):

@amyrosewater

USFS media guide lists 8 events to evaluate skaters to make Oly team in Sochi. Previous Olympics not on list. JGPF ranks last #Boston2014
https://twitter.com/amyrosewater/status/422374248963796992 (Jan 12)​

(Am left to wonder why KKonas and Mathman previously had said that the selection criteria were not in the media guide. Could it be that USFS issued more than one version of the media guide?)​

As for USFS not assigning weights to the events included in the criteria and not being 100% transparent:

I apparently am in the minority, but I do not have a problem with the USFS committee using its discretion as it applies the criteria. If my employers were considering several co-workers and me as candidates to fill a single available position at higher level, I would hope that each person's "body of work" would be taken into account. And I would not expect -- or want -- the basis for the decision to be a rigid formula of Criterion A (30%) + Criterion B (20%) + Criterion C (40%) + Criterion D (10%), or anything of that nature.

Plenty of important decisions in the world do not come with complete transparency. If I were not given the promotion, I would not necessarily expect to be told anything but generalities as to why. It would be "gravy" to me to hear anything more than something like (for example), "Although you did a great job on your most recent project, we chose the person who in our opinion has the strongest track record overall."​

 

[Tonichelle]

Carla Fassi on FB went after me when I said that it was not new information that the Nationals results do not automatically create the olympic or world teams. She told me that it has ALWAYS BEEN and should ALWAYS BE. :disapp: Apparently because I am not an elite level skater my "opinion" was considered invalid. Okie dokie. This was all in responses to my part of a discussion on facebook with skaters and skating fans on FB. I get in the heat of the moment tempers were high (I know I was more than annoyed with it all).

But really, none of the "elite" people like change. I see it all the time in dog mushing. "Change me no likey" is the motto of the day.

 

[pangtongfan]

And that is the problem Ashley has. She is not known for anything in particular
Michelle Kwan: Aristry unmatched by her fellow skaters and good technically
Sasha Cohen: Aristry, spins Musicality
Kim Yuna: Technical power house, consistency and musicality
Carolina Kostner: Good Techique, skating skills and interpretation
Mao Asada: Aristry, spins and 3A
And the new ones
Julia: consistency, BV, and spins
Gracie: Jumps and technique

When people talk about Ashley, there is nothing you can point out that, she does better than the other skaters. Now Ashley has very good qualities, but nothing that make her stand out.

Yes pretty much, and that is why I have doubts she will ever win a World medal. Even Suzuki stands out for her beautiful interpretation of music and passion she skates with.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes pretty much, and that is why I have doubts she will ever win a World medal. Even Suzuki stands out for her beautiful interpretation of music and passion she skates with.

Interesting, considering you gave a supposedly infallible prediction just a few months ago that she would win an Olympic (obviously not including the team event) or World medal this year.

5. Wagner will win a medal at atleast one of the Olympics and Worlds.
Feel free to bump if I even get a single of these wrong. As usual I wont.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

^^^

Interesting, considering you gave a supposedly infallible prediction just a few months ago that she would win an Olympic or World medal this year. (Obviously a team medal at the Olympics not counting.)

I'm not sure what part of "arbitrary application of the rules" people do not understand. Even if athletes know "the rules" that technically, the USFSA can basically do whatever they want, that does not help them plan their season. In an Olympic season, should they be trying to peak near the Grand Prix or near Nationals, if they want to be on the team? That's a huge decision, but the USFSA's random decisionmaking gives athletes no guidance whatsoever.

Precisely. :thumbsup: