The Judging Controversy Thread

[Ven]

And the article said nothing about the ladies, which is the only discipline where I noticed any really debatable stuff. No one at all is questioning the order of the medals in the team event. The Question in pairs is whether Pang and Tong deserved the bronze. Frankly, I feel there is no reason at all to believe that the Russian coach would tell L'Equipe the whole truth about things, since it would likely call into question his/her own students' results. My guess is still that the coach is Morozov.

Until ladies the placements were not much argued (except maybe Dance)...but the large difference in the top scores was very questionable. In 2002, some of the skaters complained that even though they won, they did not need help from the judges. Despite the placements not being argued, that does not mean collusion was not involved. Because of the difference, it meant the winners could have made mistakes and still won. It gave them margin of error and comfort, added pressure to the challengers, that should not have been there. S/S had no chance to win, for instance, no matter what they did. Neither did V/M. Plushenko's Team FS was very much argued.

The inflation of Sotnikova, Lipnitiskaia, and Gold, combined with the L'Equipe report, certainly makes me wonder whether the Russians and Americans were teaming up to boost each others skaters in the ladies event.

Especially with them previously at such disadvantage to Kim, Asada, and Kostner.

 

[Mt. Adam]

And Gracie did not even have American judge in the individual free skate, which makes her unbelievable high score even more suspect.

As if the Russian judge and added eastern bloc judges were the ones to give her the generous scores....one might wonder why that would happen.

hmm...

 

[verysmuchso]

@verymuchso

L'Equipe article suggested the Russians and Americans conspired to rig the games.

Shouldn't we also ask about the suspect scores given to Gracie Gold? She scored 129 personal best for a clean skate in the team event (which was supposedly rigged for the Russians), but suddenly she scored almost 137 individual despite a fall and other mistakes? The protocols suggest she too would have beaten Carolina and Mao, and possibly Kim, had she gone clean.

It turns out that 3 ladies had very suspect scores...Sotnikova, Lipnitskaia, and Gold. Of course they just happen to be the top American and Russian skaters.

Good point! Celine Nony wrote both the article about the US-Russia fixing and the one about Ladies' results.

 

[Mt. Adam]

Psychology of judges

Judges tend to give a higher score to:
(1) players of younger age and hunger spirit
(2) jumps than art
(3) aggressive and energetic programs
(4) players not enjoying financial success yet

 

[Ven]

In a close competition, psychology might play a part. But the gap between clean Kim and Sotnikova with a mistake is so large that only willful conspiracy could close that gap.

1. Sotnikova's jumps were not downgraded as they clearly should have been.

2. Three ladies experienced indiscriminate rise in PCS ... Sotnikova, Lipnitskaia, Gold. Even Julia's mistake riddled free skate received higher PCS than Asada!

3. The panel indiscriminately closed the PCS gap between the top ladies and the Russians+Gold.

4. The number of +3s given out to Julia (more than clean Kim and Kostner combined!) is clearly inaccurate.

 

[Mt. Adam]

In a close competition, psychology might play a part. But the gap between clean Kim and Sotnikova with a mistake is so large that only willful conspiracy could close that gap.

1. Sotnikova's jumps were not downgraded as they clearly should have been.

2. Three ladies experienced indiscriminate rise in PCS ... Sotnikova, Lipnitskaia, Gold. Even Julia's mistake riddled free skate received higher PCS than Asada!

3. The panel indiscriminately closed the PCS gap between the top ladies and the Russians+Gold.

4. The number of +3s given out to Julia (more than clean Kim and Kostner combined!) is clearly inaccurate.

Alright, alright. I don't disagree with you. But I wonder why nobody made a formal petition about those issues you and others raise over and over. Is that because there is no chance to win the petition or because the result is controversial but acceptable?

 

[verysmuchso]

Alright, alright. I don't disagree with you. But I wonder why nobody made a formal petition about those issues you and others raise over and over. Is that because there is no chance to win the petition of because the result might be controversial but acceptable?

It's not because the results are acceptable, but because there is no official channel to protest the results except within 30 minutes or so (I'm not totally sure though). And the Korean Federation requested an 'inquiry' from ISU which is not the same thing as officially contesting the results. And the fans do not have an official standing vis-a-vis ISU or IOC.

 

[gkelly]

It looks like the judges for the ladies' individual free skate were marking on a higher scale, on average, than the judges for the team event ladies' free skate.

Marchei and Suzuki each got a couple more points in PCS in the individual than the team event; Osmond and Lipnitskaia got about half a point more.

Gold definitely got the biggest increase. How much of that was due to an honestly more generous panel, how much to a dishonestly more generous panel, how much to skate order, how much to her skating better in the PCS criteria aside from the fall?

Suzuki also did significantly better in TES in the individual than in the team event -- mostly owing to underrotation calls in the team. Anyone want to attribute the difference in calls to conspiracy? To better jumping (aside from the fall) a week later? The tech panel was the same, so if Suzuki's jump calls in one or both free skates were politically motivated, why did the same officials change their minds about how to call her from one event to the next? Was Japan in on the plot?

 

[usethis2]

Formal petition to the ISU, if what I've heard is correct, should have been submited within 30 minutes of whatever incident. I am not sure when that 30 minutes starts ticking, but it is clearly not enough time. In any case that time has passed. Likewise, you have to have some stake in the thing to file a petition (i.e. skaters/federations). In this case, since Yuna don't care much about her medals, her federation probably respected her choice. It is only after 1.5 million people went to Change.org the KSU sent a letter to the ISU but I don't think that had any formal effect.

Nevertheless, Yuna is not the only victim in this scheme and she was at least lucky to get her skills vindicated and receive silver medal. Everyone but few knows she is the true champion. She happens to be the most visible and clearly better skater than Adelina, and she happened to skate clean, unlike Adelina, so it is an easier case to make for an example of corruption than, say, how Ashley Wagner was underscored compared to Gracie Gold. (Gold is gifted, no doubt about that, and Ashley isn't that great of a skater) But it does not mean she is the only victim nor there is a guarantee that you are not going to be a victim of this corrupt organization in the future.

 

[Mrs. P]

It looks like the judges for the ladies' individual free skate were marking on a higher scale, on average, than the judges for the team event ladies' free skate.

Marchei and Suzuki each got a couple more points in PCS in the individual than the team event; Osmond and Lipnitskaia got about half a point more.

Gold definitely got the biggest increase. How much of that was due to an honestly more generous panel, how much to a dishonestly more generous panel, how much to skate order, how much to her skating better in the PCS criteria aside from the fall?

Suzuki also did significantly better in TES in the individual than in the team event -- mostly owing to underrotation calls in the team. Anyone want to attribute the difference in calls to conspiracy? To better jumping (aside from the fall) a week later? The tech panel was the same, so if Suzuki's jump calls in one or both free skates were politically motivated, why did the same officials change their minds about how to call her from one event to the next? Was Japan in on the plot?

I thought that Gracie, aside from the fall, did a much better job in the FS in the individual event than in the team event. At the team event, the program was clean, but I felt she was quite tight for the first half. In the individual event, she skated with a lot more confidence throughout the the jumps looked a lot more fluid.

Also the fall wasn't super disruptive, IMO

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I love Yuna to death but I think if there is any investigation and anything comes to light it will be Caro gets a gold , Yuna keeps silver, Adelina keeps gold. Just saying. Some people need to see the ENTIRE picture.

Lets not forget the most overall generous judge was in Yuna's corner if you go by protocols!!

This?

If you guys want to be taken seriously than you need to quit picking and choosing facts and present the whole picture. This thread has only convinced me that there is clear bias in this thread. I'm open to all possibilities. Honestly everyone in the final group except Ashley seemed to receive inflation from their highest scores. It may have to do with the stink face she made in the team event. Their judges probably saw it on the arena screen right.

In regards to Mao and Yulia :
Mao fell open her first 2a and stepped out terribly with a two foot landing on her 2nd attempt at GPF and beat Yulia by 12 points and Yulia went clean for both skates with one error being her 3s but it was just an edge call. That was in Japan. Should I return to the GPF thread and see who on this thread was crying foul? I wasn't! You win some you lose some.

Had Mao made the final group well only be able to speculate what the amazing FS skate would have got.

 

[usethis2]

I thought that Gracie, aside from the fall, did a much better job in the FS in the individual event than in the team event. At the team event, the program was clean, but I felt she was quite tight for the first half. In the individual event, she skated with a lot more confidence throughout the the jumps looked a lot more fluid.

Also the fall wasn't super disruptive, IMO

But compare that with Yuna's score. She received 144. A fall would have cost her anywhere between -5 and -8. (losing GOE on that jump from +2 to -3, mandatory deduction -1, and UR/DG or what have you) So Yuna with one fall would have received a Gracie-like score (Gracie fell once) , and would have been dangerously close to Yulia's (Yulia fell TWICE). It just doesn't add up.

 

[CarneAsada]

In regards to Mao and Yulia :
Mao fell open her first 2a and stepped out terribly with a two foot landing on her 2nd attempt at GPF and beat Yulia by 12 points and Yulia went clean for both skates with one error being her 3s but it was just an edge call. That was in Japan. Should I return to the GPF thread and see who on this thread was crying foul? I wasn't! You won some you lose some.

There were some people protesting but the vast majority thought it was fair. A few others thought Julia should've won the FS but lost the competition overall.

Regarding her errors at the GPF she had 3 edge calls and 1 3S<.

 

[Ven]

Suzuki landed almost nothing clean in the team skate, and she was badly out of time with the music. Japan had no chance to medal, it's pretty clear she mailed in the performance.

In the individual, she made mistakes, but overall she still delivered the program. Not as many errors and under-rotations either. Even if you claim inflation of a few points, it's not something to quibble about. Even if the Russians received a few points of inflation, it's not basis for anyone to argue. But to indiscriminately eliminate gaps of 20 points and no make correct technical downgrades is something much more nefarious.

It's not like Gold only received a few points increase either. She scored 129 in the team event. With a clean individual skate, she would have scored well into the 140s..that's a ridiculous increase in 1 week's time, particularly with no American judges on the panel.

 

[Mrs. P]

But compare that with Yuna's score. She received 144. A fall would have cost her anywhere between -5 and -8. (losing GOE on that jump from +2 to -3, mandatory deduction -1, and what have you) So if Yuna with one would have received a Gracie-like score (Gracie fell once) , and would have been dangerously close to Yulia's (Yulia fell TWICE). It just doesn't add up.

Yuna would not have lost -5 to -8 points for a fall.

Let's remember the fact that -3 is not -3 points under the scale of values. -3 = -2.10. Along with the mandatory deduction, she would have lost -3.1 points total.

She would have lost more had she UR the jump, but Yuna does not get <. I guess you can argue whether Gracie's jump was UR (I don't think it was).

144.19-3.1 points = 141.09', that's a little over four points higher than Gracie.

Also consider that Gracie got level 4 on all her spins, which is not a new concept -- she has received level 4 all season long,and she gets decent +GOE on them, again not a new concept. So that boosted her overall score as well.

 

[gkelly]

But compare that with Yuna's score. She received 144. A fall would have cost her anywhere between -5 and -8. (losing GOE on that jump from +2 to -3, mandatory deduction -1, and what have you) So if Yuna with one would have received a Gracie-like score (Gracie fell once) , and would have been dangerously close to Yulia's (Yulia fell TWICE). It just doesn't add up.

But Gracie only lost about 2 points on the TES, plus 1 point for the fall, between the team and the individual events, because her flip got negative GOE in the team due as well, with an edge call both times.

I.e., if she had to fall on a jump, that was the least costly one to do it on.

There's nothing controversial about Gold's TES.

The real question is why were Gold's PCS so much higher in the individual event. I've suggested several possible reasons, only one of which supports a conspiracy theory.

Maybe all of them were true to some extent.

 

[CarneAsada]

But compare that with Yuna's score. She received 144. A fall would have cost her anywhere between -5 to -8. (losing GOE on that jump from +2 to -3, mandatory deduction -1, and what have you) So if Yuna with one would have received a Gracie-like score (Gracie fell once) , and would have been dangerously close to Yulia's (Yulia fell TWICE). It just doesn't add up.

Yuna's PCS was 74.5 - it was her TES that dropped from Worlds 2013. She stopped getting showered in +2 and +3s, so she got +12.2 GOE instead of the 16.51 GOE from Worlds 2013. She also got a mysterious Level 3 footwork sequence. She had little control over the GOE, but putting the 3S combination in the first half and only doing a Level 3 layback spin is entirely her fault. You have to go down to the 8th-place FS from Akiko Suzuki to find a LP with lower BV.

Yuna depends on her insane GOEs and PCS to get her monster scores. Of course a fall will take away much of her scores.

 

[Ven]

I thought that Gracie, aside from the fall, did a much better job in the FS in the individual event than in the team event. At the team event, the program was clean, but I felt she was quite tight for the first half. In the individual event, she skated with a lot more confidence throughout the the jumps looked a lot more fluid.

Also the fall wasn't super disruptive, IMO

You think Gracie clean should have scored higher than Carolina, Mao, and possibly Kim?

Which is what the protocols indicate.

 

[Mrs. P]

You think Gracie clean should have scored higher than Carolina, Mao, and possibly Kim?

Which is what the protocols indicate.

But she wasn't clean. Yes you can do some math to assume what she would have scored, but since she wasn't ACTUALLY clean, I don't see what is to be gained form the exercise.

I don't see what you have to gain for your case by picking on Gracie. You're actually mudding things a bit if you ask me.

 

[Ven]

Gold, Lipnitskaia, and Sotnikova are not even in the same league as Kim, Asada, and Kostner. In fact, it's been that way since forever. But suddenly in the last month, they are able to outscore them apples to apples.