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Quadruple toe loop
- Thread starter HanDomi
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Oh man I thought this was so funny. Perfect phrasing.
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- Jan 25, 2013
So as many others I also think that Hanyu and Chan are definitely among the best. However, when I watched TEB 2013 live, it was Han Yan who impressed me the most with his jumps, 3A and 4T included. It is not as visible on the videos but I was surprised how with the 3-turn before the 4T he gained so much speed in so little time. It was this final acceleration and the distance his jumps covered that were so good. As we are discussing the 4T I'm not so sure I'd put him before Hanyu or Chan but in my opinion he had the best 3A of all men.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Han Yan's 3A is definitely the best. But does he have a long preparation for the jumps? He is still young and I think his jumps will get stronger.
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'Long preparation' no, but he doesn't have as amazing transitions into his jumps as Chan and Hanyu. He's far from stalking them, but you can see the jumps coming (especially the 3A). I guess it's a thing of personal preference - his 4T didn't look bigger or as it if covered more ice than Chans or Hanysu to me (which is a personal impression that others can disagree with), but the latter guys have a more fluid 4T overall. So I'd take Chans and Hanyus over his (but Yans is definitely still great!).
Guess it's similar for the 3As. Yans covers more ice than Hanyus (which still covers quite some distance too), but I think I prefer the entry of Hanyu, since it's not the usual you-can-already-see-it-coming 3A setup. All personal taste I guess
Guess it's similar for the 3As. Yans covers more ice than Hanyus (which still covers quite some distance too), but I think I prefer the entry of Hanyu, since it's not the usual you-can-already-see-it-coming 3A setup. All personal taste I guess
Han Yan's 3A looks nice, but I think I still prefer Hanyu's one, because his 3A is I would say quite diffrent from others. He have great flexibility I would say in his 3A,. He can jump it from many diffrent positions, and still reach massive height and distance. And I just simply love his 3A from counter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIFQTXcTR08#t=116
I don't know why we're factoring in transitions into 4T when Chan doesn't do them either. He used to try them, but it just made his quad inconsistent, so he gave up on the transitions (hence why his quad became more consistent). Mind you, it's a move I support, since I don't see the point of transition-transition-fall.
Hanyu does have the most difficult 3A entry, though I prefer his 3A over Han Yan's for a different reason: I like Hanyu's more classic arc, as opposed to Han Yan's long, low one.
Hanyu does have the most difficult 3A entry, though I prefer his 3A over Han Yan's for a different reason: I like Hanyu's more classic arc, as opposed to Han Yan's long, low one.
To me Hanyu has the best 3A and 4T ever. He has great extension on landings and his body type just makes his air position look very slim and aesthetically pleasing. Chan has a good 4T but compared to Hanyu, his larger body makes it look like the jump is taking much more effort..
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- Jan 25, 2013
Well, obviously yes. But those are two different aspects of the jump. It's like saying a Rippon lutz is rubbish if the skater flutzes... you're taking into account two different aspects of the jump, being take-off and air position. It's obviously subjective how you define a jump to be rubbish. For example, Kovtun's 4S has a terrible posture going into it, but the rest of the quad is fine. Machida's quad is fine, except he has an obvious "set-up" down the ice into it. Chances are a skater will not execute a quad with transitions unless they feel comfortable doing it, and unless the skater snags an edge or something, a transitional setup doesn't have much bearing on the actual quad execution itself (usually the critical moment of a quad is the landing, not the set-up and takeoff)... doesn't matter if you have twizzles into your quad or a stalked setup, if you can't get your feet under you properly.
A poorly executed jump is obviously poor regardless of the entrance, however a skater should still be lauded for attempting a harder entry into the jump. At the end of the day, a strong jump with transitions should beat a strong jump without transitions, because it's a superior entry into the jump, which makes it more difficult to maintain speed.
It's not snobbish to expect elite skaters to try more intricate entries into their jumps. Especially when we've all seen 3A and 4T jumps (usually without transitions) landed over the past 20 years and with greater emphasis on transitions/varied air positions/interesting landings, at least it's upping the ante a little bit, even if the attempted jumps are still the same difficulty.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Chan does do transitional steps leading into his quads. His first quad in his LP is more basic transitional steps (mohawks), but his second quad has a rocker prior to it, which is a pretty risky transition in that it can really kill all your speed if you don't control the edges perfectly. He certainly doesn't motor into his quad with simple stroking like many other skaters, and actually turns forwards and backwards prior to it.
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No, they should go and work on the jump. No skater should ever be lauded for falling off a jump or screwing it up just because he does a bunch of transitions into it.
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- Jan 25, 2013
That's not the point I'm making. Falling on a jump and screwing it up is (for the most part) independent of the transitions leading up to it, seeing as how it's rare for a skater to not execute their takeoff properly (seeing as how they practice the same entrance over and over and over until they're comfortable with it and still maintaining sufficient speed into the jump is second nature). If Jason Brown falls on his Tano lutz, it's probably not because of the spiral leading into it. Hanyu's 3A is still impressive in its entrance, even if he steps out of the landing or touches his hand down. A judge should say "That was a substandard 3A overall... but the entry was impressive". Transitions are a bullet point for jumps, so obviously skaters ARE lauded for transitions - obviously a skater wouldn't be lauded for the fall/screwed up part of the jump... they'd be lauded for the entry.
The point I'm making is, if you have skaters all with strong quads (Hanyu/Chan/Plushenko), then one variable to look at as to who has the best quad toe is their ability to do transitions before it.
i.e. If Plushenko did his current quad with Hanyu/Chan's entrance, would you not agree that it would be a "better quad toe" than the one Plushenko already has? So if Chan/Hanyu/Plushenko all have strong quads, then transitions could be a point of difference... since obviously, a better quad would allow for a skater to place transitions leading into it.
Skaters should be lauded for attempting higher difficulty on their elements, even if it's not always successful. If it's never successful then obviously the skater needs to re-consider the merits of upping the difficulty. But we shouldn't dismiss their attempts to do something beyond par for the course. It's like saying if skater did a Tano 3Z, getting on their case just because they flutz the jump.. and saying the Tano is irrelevant and unimpressive if the skater doesn't hit the right takeoff edge.
I understand what you're saying, but all of the men we're discussing have beautiful jumps in the first place. None of them are rubbish, so I don't consider it snobbish for people to use transitional moves into the jumps as one of the factors for what makes that particular jump the best to them. Some may value shape of the arc (Hanyu versus Han's 3A), some the posture coming out of it (Ten), consistency (Plushenko), combinations (for quads, Plushenko/Chan) or transitions.
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- Jan 25, 2013
I understand what you're saying, but all of the men we're discussing have beautiful jumps in the first place. None of them are rubbish, so I don't consider it snobbish for people to use transitional moves into the jumps as one of the factors for what makes that particular jump the best to them. Some may value shape of the arc (Hanyu versus Han's 3A), some the posture coming out of it (Ten), consistency (Plushenko), combinations (for quads, Plushenko/Chan) or transitions.
:agree: It's not snobbish to say Hanyu has one of the best, if not the best, 3A ever given the counter entry. IMO, the ability to do the counter entry is what puts Hanyu over the top in terms of who has the best 3A, as there would otherwise be candidates who have a better 3A than Hanyu's "regular" 3A.
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- Apr 22, 2014
Oh my goodness. Thanks so much for sharing that, that quad is seriously one of the best figure skating jumps I have ever seen performed. Geeeeez
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Thank you for sharing. Not a good case for 6.0 scoring
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Thank you for sharing. Not a good case for 6.0 scoring
It's funny, when the thread was mentioned, I spent a second thinking about Chengjiang Li, but then resorted to obvious choices like Hanyu and Chan. That quad was a beauty and with tricky footwork going into it, and no hesitation.
Yes, DEFINITELY not a good case for 6.0. He was first up, hence the low scores, but for a technical program those should have been 5.5+ across the board.
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- Feb 13, 2014
And it looked so easy. What a pity for him...
