Shizuka, Sasha and Michelle and Interpretation According to CoP | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Shizuka, Sasha and Michelle and Interpretation According to CoP

Mathman said:
To me, that's kind of a problem. Suppose I go to the world's greatest choreographer. He or she gives me the world's greatest program.

Of course I can't skate a lick. Do I still get 10s for choreography?

Mathman

Well mathmani think you and i know that that will not be the case. it will be a case of general impression and just posting out scores.
A lot has been wondered about whether MK will do well under the new system given the relative simplicity of some of the things she does. It might turn out that because she scores highly in he execution of everything she does it will make up for missing difficulty.
If she skates like say, in Nationals LP for Tosca most elements will be +2 or even +3 I would think. But given the way COP works I have a feeling that judges might do 'close marking' just like what they do in university for us. Which goes something like it's easy to get 0 or +/-1 even depending on how things go but to give someone a +3 or -3(unless they fall) would be quite unusual. In that sense there's a magnet in the 0 region which the judges would adhere to. Under these circumstances the person who does the most big tricks should win it.
 
I realize the original thread only talked about interpretation for those ladies under CoP, but since people have mentioned elements, I'd like to add this. Let's look at who got level 3 elements among ladies in the GP:

Cohen – Spin - Lalique, FS
Cohen – Spiral - Lalique, SP
Shizuka – Spiral - GPF, FS
Neilidina – Spin - Cup of Russia, SP
Sabasyen – Spin - Lalique, FS
Robinson – Spin - Skate Canada, SP
Basova – Spiral - Cup of China, SP
Basova – Spiral - Skate Canada, SP

I think that puts into perspective what it is to do "exceptionally well" under CoP.
 
While I agree Sasha did very well with the COP this season, I don't believe her LP at Worlds would have garnered such high marks. It was very watered down from the GP series ... in fact, both she and Michelle will need more content in their programs next season if they expect to score highly.
I also agree that Shizuka will be looked at in an entirely different light next season. She will get the respect due a World Champion. I don't believe you will see Sasha running away with the competitions as she has the past few years. And if MK decides to compete ... it could be very, very exciting!
 
I hope that Shikuza does get the respect due her as the reigning world champion. I also hope that Michelle tests out the CoP at least once next year before Nationals (if she does decide to keep going). I think she will (JMHO), and I think that RA will get her technical content up to the level she needs to have to fully match up with the other skaters.
 
nymkfan51 said:
While I agree Sasha did very well with the COP this season, I don't believe her LP at Worlds would have garnered such high marks. It was very watered down from the GP series ... in fact, both she and Michelle will need more content in their programs next season if they expect to score highly.
I also agree that Shizuka will be looked at in an entirely different light next season. She will get the respect due a World Champion. I don't believe you will see Sasha running away with the competitions as she has the past few years. And if MK decides to compete ... it could be very, very exciting!

Sasha would definitely keep old version of the SL, if Words was to be judged under the COP. (By the way, last year her Rachmaninoff LP also got watered down under necessity to put in another jumping pass at Worlds.)

I don't believe Sasha was "running away" with anything in the last couple of years, which are basically her entire career. She worked very hard to establish herself as #1 ranked skater, and I don't see her status being diminished next season, since now she's a reigning World silver medalist.

Arakawa have had an amazing year, medaling in every competition, and hitting it big at Worlds, but still, even coming on the heels of her recent victory, she was placed second to Cohen by the international panel of judges (very impressive win for Sasha, since she didn't do 3/3, and Shizuka did). I see very interesting rivalry developing between these 2 skaters, and IMO, barring injury or other unexpected obstacles, SA and SC would go neck in neck, trading #1 and #2 places a lot in the next 2 seasons to come.
 
registered said:

I don't believe Sasha was "running away" with anything in the last couple of years, which are basically her entire career. She worked very hard to establish herself as #1 ranked skater, and I don't see her status being diminished next season, since now she's a reigning World silver medalist.


I've never quite understood the ranking system. It always seemed to be as much a reflection of how many competitions you've placed in, as compared to where you might have placed in Worlds, GPF or a National comp.
 
I don't believe Sasha was "running away" with anything in the last couple of years, which are basically her entire career.
Sasha has been on the senior international scene for 4 years, not 2. Let's stick to facts.
 
berthes ghost said:
Sasha has been on the senior international scene for 4 years, not 2. Let's stick to facts.

Well, I said "basically," since in her first season she made quite a few appearances, and her second year was cut short by an injury.

But even looking at the entire time period: she made Nationals podium every year, since her very first try, won GPF last year and won silver at Worlds on her third try -- not too shabby.
 
registered said:
Arakawa have had an amazing year, medaling in every competition, and hitting it big at Worlds, but still, even coming on the heels of her recent victory, she was placed second to Cohen by the international panel of judges (very impressive win for Sasha, since she didn't do 3/3, and Shizuka did). I see very interesting rivalry developing between these 2 skaters, and IMO, barring injury or other unexpected obstacles, SA and SC would go neck in neck, trading #1 and #2 places a lot in the next 2 seasons to come.

Am I to assume then, that you are counting Michelle out?
 
To be honest though, looking at how the judges mark in the COP. they just give similar marks in all categories and you cant blame them because it is difficult and time consuming to break down the previous presentation marks into 5 bits and have to think through all of them and compare each segment with other skaters. Just not possible. I think it's just an overall score they put, plus minus .25 for each categorym [/B]


I think Adam is correct. If one looks at the different factors to the 5 components, it is seemingly impossible for anyone to really put a score down for each factor of the components. And then have the scores ready for final tally. There just isn't enough time to do this fairly. Because of the rush to score, I can see some judges actually make errors when there was no intent to mark someone that low or that high.

What I think the judges will do since they are already familiar with the top skaters, is be somewhat prepared for the scores. before the competition. Unfortunately, for the not so well known skaters They will get a rush scoring without much thought unless they show top level presentation.

OH, it's subh a subjective sport.

Joe
 
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One point about Sasha's LP: She had four TAT versions of "Swan Lake" for the GP series and final. IMO, the version for Trophee Lalique was by far the best. Serpentine FW, change-edge spiral (Level 3), no mistakes except for almost a hand down on the 2Axel. Then there was the RW watered-down TAT for Nats, followed by the completely reworked RW version for Worlds. That's six different versions of "Swan Lake." True, in the GP series the structure was basically the same but with added difficulty. But RW's World's version was essentially a whole new program. Different music, some of the same moves but a lot of things changed, which affect muscle memory--and also affect how the program would be judgdd under the COP. What I thought RW helped Sasha do was improve her jumps--have never seen them look better technically. She flubbed two in the free skate, but she landed everything else with a solidity of technique I've never seen in Sasha before. But there was not the fw into the jumps that TAT had.

Basically, to speculate on how Sasha would do under the COP, we have to differentiate between which version of "SL" she did. During the GP series, even though there were changes in difficulty, Sasha was about 20 points (don't quote me, too late t check) ahead of the second place finisher, Shizuka, in at least two of the competitions with TAT's "SL." TAT's "SL" was carefully designed to milk every point out of the COP. RW's "SL" was designed (a) for the OBO system and (b) to, IMO, say "Sasha is MY skater"--you know how male wolves, dogs, cats, and certain other mammals do when they lift a leg to, ahem, "mark their territory." If Sasha won the gold, NO WAY did RW want her winning it with TAT's choreography. Ironically, I think that decision may have cost Sasha the gold.

So if we're talking COP, I'd say Sasha's GP "SL" choreographed by TAT has proven that, even if skated with a couple of mistakes, she was way ahead of everybody else. OTOH, the judges were not very familiar with the COP, so I think there was some general overmarking on the component scores. If we're talking about RW's World's "SL," which was meant for the OBO system, then we have a weak program no matter how well Sasha skated it. By all accounts I've heard, Sasha skated very well in the QR. Yet in a week during which 6.0s were handed out like advertising flyers in Las Vegas, Sasha did not get a single 6. for her QR performance.

It's the skater's performance AND the choreography. Although a great performance can make up for rather empty choreography, I skater can only do so much. Michelle got a unanimous row of 6.0s for "Lyra Angelica"at Nats and had people all over the arena, including some judges, in tears. At Nagano, from those who saw it live, it was flat and the choreography was not enough to hold it up. I know she was coming off the fractured toe and this is nothing against Michelle since she still skated a mistake-free program; my point is just that for a high COP value, you've got to have good choreography AND a good-great performance.

I too wil be very curious to see how Shizuka does with TAT's choreography. I'm curious about TAT too. Now that she has her World ladies singles gold medalist, will she relax a bit or will she put everything she's got into getting Shizza the Olympic gold--and beating that naughty Sasha as a bonus, lol? Hard to tell. I hope TAT goes all out. I'd love to see Shizuka blossom into the truly amazing skater I think she can be. Don't get me wrong, she was great at Worlds, but she could be even better.

In sum, when talking COP, keep in mind major changes to the choreography. I know it took me a while to train my eye to see FW patterns and other difficult entrances into jumps, but man, do they ever rack up the points. TAT's "SL" was chuggy-jam with that kind of stuff. RW's had none of it and I think the judges, having had experience with the COP, noticed. BTW, this goes for Michelle's "Tosca" too. If she'd skated clean, she might have won or at least won second at Worlds under OBO. But under the COP, I think "Tosca" would have a TSS of about 115-120. I think Sasha had the highest during the GP series with three TSS of127, not counting the tenths, at SA, SC, and TL. I can't recall what Shizuka got at the GPF; my GP notes are on my other computer, which, ironically, is broken, lol.

There's something to think about. What if a computer breaks during a competition? I guess they'd go with one of the pretend judges. But what if they all went out? OMG, it's too horrible to think about:laugh:
Rgirl
 
Rgirl, I think you are correct in that the judges did overmark a bit this past season with the COP. I suspect that this coming season the scores might come down just a bit as the judges get used to the system.
If Michelle decides to compete in the GP, I am sure her programs will be much different. It is clear that her Tosca and RW's SL would not hold up under COP. It will be no easy task to put the difficulty back in the programs for COP, and still skate clean. The GP series next year could be very, very interesting.
 
At the GPF, the FS scores were:
Fumie 120.06
Sasha 116.68 (2 falls)
Shizuka 114.23

Sasha got FS scores of 130+ for SA, 127+ for SC and 126+ for Lalique.

It's my understanding that the ISU is completely rewriting the Skating Components criteria and that judges will be attending classes to learn how to apply the criteria correctly.

Of course, with so many changes to both technical AND SC scoring, the disadvantage here is that the CoP system will still be highly experimental and the Russian Federation may be even more adamant in protesting its use at 2005 Worlds.
 
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TAT & Shizuka

RGirl, it seems that TAT has two different attitudes in regards to skaters. There are skaters she just "helps"; sure, she wants them to win, but she won't put too much of herself on the line for them. An example would be Fusar-Poli & Margaglio.

OTOH, once she really "adopts" a skater, she won't loosen up. I don't think it's just about the medals for her either -- she has enough of those. It really becomes a matter of personal and proffessional pride for her to help those skaters achieve their very best. She really becomes a mother-figure (Natalia Bestemianova recalls how furious TT was when she decided to marry Igor Bobrin -- TT thought Natalia could do better). I am not sure what her relationship with Shizuka is going to be like; for one thing, as someone has mentioned, what languages do they speak? Can she really have a spiritual closeness with a skater she has to use an interpreter with, someone from such an entirely different culture as Japan? We shall see.
 
registered said:
Is it OK with you if I'll post about Cohen and Arakawa, without mentioning Michelle? :D

Sorry ... of course, mention whomever you would like.
Time will tell anyway, who the number 1 and 2 positions go to. :)
 
Let's not get worked up over the personalities involved in this thread. The three ladies are all very good and it doesn't take long to know who is rooting for who. Leaving anyone of the three out of the disussion is fine. However, it is nice to read that Shizuka is now a serious skater for comparision.

The thread started out as a question of the 'character' in the Interpretation component. For me, it was gratifying to read from many posters that it does not mean the lead role in a ballet or an Opera but it could be an original character created by the skater because of the music. Whether the three Ladies did this is moot, imo, but this was Dortmund, not CoP.

Joe
 
Joesitz said:
For me, it was gratifying to read from many posters that it does not mean the lead role in a ballet or an Opera but it could be an original character created by the skater because of the music.
CoP doesn't even specify that the skater create an original character, as long as they project the character of the music. I think Sandhu did this especially well in his LP this season.
 
Artistic perspective is purely subjective, personally I found Kwan's LP at Worlds to be a lackluster, and wonder if she'd get any 6.0s for that kind of performance, unless judges felt she had to be awarded for an unpleasant incident with a streaker with beefed up marks.

Artistic perspective is purely subjective, personally, I think relative to the 5.8s and 5.9s for the "lifeless" swan lake program, Tosca was a 6.0 with or without the streaker. IMO if Arakawa skated after Sasha, Arakawa would have all 6.0s
 
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rtureck said:
Artistic perspective is purely subjective, personally, I think relative to the 5.8s and 5.9s for the "lifeless" swan lake program, Tosca was a 6.0 with or without the streaker. IMO if Arakawa skated after Sasha, Arakawa would have all 6.0s

You're right, what a brilliant idea! Most likely judges have confused Kwan for Arakawa. (Always knew I can count on you for some creative, unbiased perspective).:laugh:
 
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