The Bielmann spin: Sasha vs. Irina

antmanb · Sep 23, 2005

Red Dog said:
"Everyone" is being used here as a generic term. Maybe they don't refer to (Cohen's mistakes) as a "meltdown" but they will say that "she blew it", she "could have won", etc. which basically leads to the same thing in my book: They expect(ed) more from her. "They" represents the people of the skating forums and the commentators as well.

At last the truth then - so by "Everyone" you mean "you" and by "meltdown" you mean "blew it"- no-one has said she's had a meltdown...saying that someone blew it and saying they had a meltdown are two very different things. One could argue that Pluschenko "blew it" in the SLC Olympics...he blew his chances of gold by falling on the 4Toe in the SP...did he blow it? Yep i think so, did he have a meltdown? Not at all - he fell on one jump. Same with cohen - if she has one mistake or two in a world competition - did she blow her chances of winning the gold? Certainly, did she have a meltdown? Let's see she stepped out of a jump and had a bobble elsewhere - certainly not!

Ant

R.D. · Sep 23, 2005

antmanb said:
At last the truth then - so by "Everyone" you mean "you" and by "meltdown" you mean "blew it"- no-one has said she's had a meltdown...saying that someone blew it and saying they had a meltdown are two very different things. One could argue that Pluschenko "blew it" in the SLC Olympics...he blew his chances of gold by falling on the 4Toe in the SP...did he blow it? Yep i think so, did he have a meltdown? Not at all - he fell on one jump. Same with cohen - if she has one mistake or two in a world competition - did she blow her chances of winning the gold? Certainly, did she have a meltdown? Let's see she stepped out of a jump and had a bobble elsewhere - certainly not!

Ant

Not necessarily. What I am saying is that no matter how one wants to put it (whether she "blew it", "could have won", or totally had a "meltdown") I BELIEVE it comes to the same thing- they expected more out of her. Remember that I'm being generic- not specific. I realize there is a difference between "losing the gold" and having a meltdown, but I'm sure all Kwan fans will remember "I didn't lose the gold, I WON the silver." It depends on how one looks at it. I happen to agree with you (!) about the "meltdown" discussion. I also don't think it's worthy to call a fall and a bobble a "meltdown" because I've seen real meltdowns before and the mistakes that Cohen makes just don't match. How often have you heard a poster or commentator say "but she fell apart in the LP..." "she just couldn't pull herself together..."? I think I've said this myself in the past, but I've come to learn (and realize) that her mistake(s) really aren't THAT bad. The way some people describe it you'd think she falls on ALL her jumps. That's what some of the real frustrated fans (and the detractors as well) do.

JMO- of course.

antmanb · Sep 23, 2005

Red Dog said:
Not necessarily. What I am saying is that no matter how one wants to put it (whether she "blew it", "could have won", or totally had a "meltdown") I BELIEVE it comes to the same thing- they expected more out of her. Remember that I'm being generic- not specific. I realize there is a difference between "losing the gold" and having a meltdown, but I'm sure all Kwan fans will remember "I didn't lose the gold, I WON the silver." It depends on how one looks at it. I happen to agree with you (!) about the "meltdown" discussion. I also don't think it's worthy to call a fall and a bobble a "meltdown" because I've seen real meltdowns before and the mistakes that Cohen makes just don't match. How often have you heard a poster or commentator say "but she fell apart in the LP..." "she just couldn't pull herself together..."? I think I've said this myself in the past, but I've come to learn (and realize) that her mistake(s) really aren't THAT bad. The way some people describe it you'd think she falls on ALL her jumps. That's what some of the real frustrated fans (and the detractors as well) do.

JMO- of course.

Fair enough! I myself am no great Sasha fan but i think we as a fan base have been very spoilt by skaters like Kwan and Slutskaya (and Lipinksi and Hughes) being able to consistently put down clean 6 or 7 triple programs for well over a decade.

If you look back at previous Olympics - until Lipinski's win in 1998 the winning Olympics free skate has flaws in them back to Witts time and even then i'm sure in '88 there was a popped triple (flip maybe?) and back in '84 when a full set of triples wasn't necessary.

Having one or two mistakes in a free skate is not a big deal, it only becomes more of a big deal when the other skaters around are all producing totally 100% error free programs. And that is not the case with Sasha - she's serial silver medalist which means that on any given day there is only one person who skating with less mistakes than her - i think that's goo dand that she is a good skater, it just means that she's unlucky enough to have one person make less mistakes then her.

Ant

R.D. · Sep 23, 2005

antmanb said:
Fair enough! I myself am no great Sasha fan but i think we as a fan base have been very spoilt by skaters like Kwan and Slutskaya (and Lipinksi and Hughes) being able to consistently put down clean 6 or 7 triple programs for well over a decade.

If you look back at previous Olympics - until Lipinski's win in 1998 the winning Olympics free skate has flaws in them back to Witts time and even then i'm sure in '88 there was a popped triple (flip maybe?) and back in '84 when a full set of triples wasn't necessary.

Ant

Also, if you look at recent winning freeskates at Worlds, you'll notice that they were knockout performances. In 2005 you had Irina rocking her home crowd, in 2004 you had Arakawa pulling off a stunner, and in 2003 you had Kwan giving her fans all she's got. I don't know about Irina in 2002- whether that was a "knockout" performance or not but she clearly beat Kwan there. And in 2000 and 2001 you had Kwan's winning freeskates which raised the roof.

You may be right about the past (I wouldn't know since I wasn't following skating closely before then) but I think now, the moral is if you want to win the big ones (Worlds, Olys) you HAVE to not only be mistake free but rise to the challenge. If you don't, someone else will. And that is enough to cost you the gold, even if you gave it your all.

Having one or two mistakes in a free skate is not a big deal, it only becomes more of a big deal when the other skaters around are all producing totally 100% error free programs. And that is not the case with Sasha - she's serial silver medalist which means that on any given day there is only one person who skating with less mistakes than her - i think that's goo dand that she is a good skater, it just means that she's unlucky enough to have one person make less mistakes then her.

I agree with this, but what I said earlier applies here- at this day and age it seems you just cannot afford to make silly mistakes if you want to win. And Cohen makes them all the time. Even holding back while staying relatively error-free could cost you the gold (as Kwan learned in 98).

Piel · Sep 23, 2005

IMO a "metdown" or "falling apart" is when after a mistake the skater is not able to get back on track and skate the rest of the program as planned. They will keep making mistakes and/or double /single/pop jumps. It would be interesting to see a list of the error free progrmas that have ended in podium finishes for the skater over the past 20 -25 years.

gezando · Sep 23, 2005

chuckm said:
What happens with Sasha at important (i.e. championship) competitions is that she skates like a zombie--no expression, no joy. The one exception was the SP at Worlds 2004.

IMO, the only time Cohen skated from the heart was her 2000 sp. All other programs including the 04 world sp were expressionless, and cold.

The Bielmann spin: Sasha vs. Irina

antmanb

R.D.

antmanb

R.D.

Piel

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