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- Aug 4, 2003
The Bielmann spin: Sasha vs. Irina
- Thread starter yoy_mama
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- Jul 26, 2003
I really do not understand some people sometimes. If Denis Biellmann is the standard when it comes to the biellman, does that make everyone else who attempts it or is doing it less "worthy"? The fact that Sasha has a better spiral, in terms of extension and beauty, then Kwan, does not make Kwan's less worthy.
I think people are forgetting that biellmann is very difficult, specially the biellman spiral, thats why its hard for me to believe when I hear young kids are doing it with so much ease and control. Irina is been doing the biellmann, only god knows how many years, it took her a while to actually perfect it and get it centered right, although she does tend to travel sometimes.
Its been a signature move for her, whether some people hate it or not, every where she goes, people want to see her biellmann.Denis Biellmann(although she was not the first to do the Biellmann) does a breath taking biellmann, its Irina who took the move, made it her own, and put it on the map.
As a competitor she's already at a disadvantage in terms of her illness, a smart competitor that she is, she'll always find ways to stay ahead of her competition. If that means "pimpin the biellmann" so be it.
I think people are forgetting that biellmann is very difficult, specially the biellman spiral, thats why its hard for me to believe when I hear young kids are doing it with so much ease and control. Irina is been doing the biellmann, only god knows how many years, it took her a while to actually perfect it and get it centered right, although she does tend to travel sometimes.
Its been a signature move for her, whether some people hate it or not, every where she goes, people want to see her biellmann.Denis Biellmann(although she was not the first to do the Biellmann) does a breath taking biellmann, its Irina who took the move, made it her own, and put it on the map.
As a competitor she's already at a disadvantage in terms of her illness, a smart competitor that she is, she'll always find ways to stay ahead of her competition. If that means "pimpin the biellmann" so be it.
Thanks MidnightNess. His Biellmann is wonderful! However, I truly think that this is a move that should be reserved for the ladies.
Excidra - I agree with most of what you wrote, with the exception of Sasha's spiral being better than Michelle's in terms of beauty. Sasha gets her leg a bit higher, but that's it.
Excidra - I agree with most of what you wrote, with the exception of Sasha's spiral being better than Michelle's in terms of beauty. Sasha gets her leg a bit higher, but that's it.
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- May 11, 2004
Lucy25 said:
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- Jul 11, 2003
Pau-goodle76 said:
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- Jul 11, 2003
Whatever.....antmanb said:
I'm not sure I understand you. A flying forward sitspin? I don't think I've ever seen that. Who does it?
A LFO take off with a full one and a half turns in the air to begin with is an axel. The normal landing would be a bo edge and hence, a back outside sit spin. To land it on the take off foot for a bi edge wold be difficult but again, I've never seen this. I agree this should be worth much more than an ordinary flying camel.
I Totally Agree!! and while they are at it, take a look at their acceptance of the Flutz which is a Flip. If they did have the Tech Asst call out flip, you will find more skaters either leaving the lutz out or working on it properly. I prefer to call it the Tara Jump because she said the judges do not pay attention to it. She was right.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
But will the judges properly rate the ugly spin? I agree though Denise's should be bench mark. I don't know of anyone who can do it that well, though and certainly no one will do it better.chuckm said:
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Lucy25 said:
I guess we will have to disagree with this one. The way I see it, Sasha does not need the climax of the music to show how beautiful her spiral is. With Michelle, it seems like she needs the build up of the music to show the beauty of her spiral. Its like, here comes the boom and the bang of the music and then Kwan goes for the spiral. Do you understand what i'm trying to say?
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- Feb 5, 2004
Excidra2001 said:
Of course not because "extension and beauty" are not what make a spiral good. Spirals are mostly about the edges therefore its the depth and security of edge along with speed and flow that makes a spiral superior. The hyper extension and amplitude are the icing on the cake if you will, in that if you have the basic edge quality and can still pull it off while hyper extending then it is a truly diffcult skating move (like Bobek's spiral). if you have amazing edge with great speed flow, depth and security, have a strong lean and have a very high free leg then you have a fantastic spiral which is a difficult skating move but not quite as good as the previous one mentioned (like Kwan's spiral). If you have shallow edges that tend to wobble, the speed decreases rather than remaining constant or accelerating through the spiral but manage to have your free leg so high that you're doing the splits and have very pretty arm and body positions then IMO the skating skill you are demonstrating are not even basic - they're deficient - holding a basic edge is a basic skating skill and the number one part of a spiral is the edge quality, if the basic skating part isn't satisfied then the showy leg and body positions are the only thing of worth (like Cohen's spiral) which to my mind should be beaten by anyone who can hold a good strong edged spiral with the free leg above hip height (like Slutskaya's spiral).
I don't think anyone is saying that unless the Biellmann is performed as well as Denise herself did it they're not worthy, i think all that's being said is Denise performed the spin to the best standard we have ever seen therefore she is yardstick everyone else is measured by. With the prevalence of Biellmann's the debate will come up time and time again. The reason it is important for the biellmann is that it is a very difficult move and anything short of doing it perfect makes the move actively ugly to watch therefore people will mention it a lot. Nothing about "worthiness" just a comparison as i made above with spirals...just because no-one out there can do a spiral as well as bobek should no-one else be "worthy" of trying them? Of course not, but if someone does one i don't think is as good, am i allowed to say so? Of course i am!
Ant
Last edited:
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- Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
It's very rarely seen these days because it is very difficult, i thin konce upon a time it was called a flying axel sitspin or some such thing but as you rightly point out - the difficulty is the one and half turns hitting the sit position in the air, then reaching back to the ice with the LEFT leg to get into the forward sitspin position. I think Robin Cousins used to do a beautiful one. I suspect any skater that had good high open tuck axels would be good at this move.
I think possibly that dick button might have invented this spin - i've certainly seen some black and white footage of him doing one but without getting in to the sit position at the peak of the jump.
Ant
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- Feb 5, 2004
Excidra2001 said:
I would argue that Kwan puts her change of edge spiral during build ups in the music as a choreographic highlight, it shows that some thought has been given to the placing of the element in terms of the music, just like the cross overs she does to build up speed into her spirals usually happen in perfect time to the beat of the music. The desired effect is that the skating elements compliment the music and vice versa. This is something that is missing in a lot of skaters' program when they just do their elements with total disregard for the music...think Sokolova.
Ant
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
And Sasha will change her routine to ensure her hyper extended spiral is placed right in front of the judges as it travels along the flat. This is not a nitpick of her spiral in the bad sense because her spiral is very effective, and a skater has to do whatever to get points.
The height of the free leg in the spiral except for beauty is irrelevant. The Sport is figure skating, and it's all about what the blade is doing on the ice. A higher free leg than the head spiral is pretty and should be considered as part of the PCS scores in the CoP but the skating element itself should be judged on its solid position of blade to ice and how well the skater holds the edge (or flat) and balances the body. (The Tech Score). A non bobble change of edge would be the ultimate in spiral scoring.
There are many skaters who make beautiful arabesques on the ice and travel on the edge. Even some males also. Cohen, Bobeck and Kwan happen to have 'wow' high leg spirals and how they present these whether with the swell of the music or directly at the judges is their business to impress the judges. Nothing wrong here as far as I am concerned.
Joe
The height of the free leg in the spiral except for beauty is irrelevant. The Sport is figure skating, and it's all about what the blade is doing on the ice. A higher free leg than the head spiral is pretty and should be considered as part of the PCS scores in the CoP but the skating element itself should be judged on its solid position of blade to ice and how well the skater holds the edge (or flat) and balances the body. (The Tech Score). A non bobble change of edge would be the ultimate in spiral scoring.
There are many skaters who make beautiful arabesques on the ice and travel on the edge. Even some males also. Cohen, Bobeck and Kwan happen to have 'wow' high leg spirals and how they present these whether with the swell of the music or directly at the judges is their business to impress the judges. Nothing wrong here as far as I am concerned.
Joe
Sasha's spiral has great amplitude, but her edge is shallow, and when she changes the edge, she can't glide very far because the edge isn't as deep as it needs to be.
Kwan's spiral doesn't have the amplitude of Sasha's, but her edges are deeper and more secure; after the change of edge, she glides just as far on the second edge as she did on the first.
Kwan's spiral doesn't have the amplitude of Sasha's, but her edges are deeper and more secure; after the change of edge, she glides just as far on the second edge as she did on the first.
I know we are going off topic here, but I am pretty sure that most skaters try to put a highlight move at a climax in the music. Michelle's spiral gets a huge reaction from the audience; they wait for it. It makes total sense for her to build up to it. Anyway, the placement of a move has nothing to do with the "beauty" of it. Michelle's spiral is gorgeous for what it is, great extension, superb control, and deep edges. She could do it anywhere in the program and it would still be gorgeous. If I remember correctly, Sasha and Nicole Bobek also place their spirals to the music. It just makes sense.
euterpe said:
The depth of the edge shouldn't have anything to do with how long she can glide after the change of edge -- if anything, a deeper edge should make it harder. The higher free leg should also make it harder to hold a deep edge, especially the inside edge.
Both shallow edges and difficulty sustaining them could be symptoms of the same technical problems though.
Well, she can, but often she hasn't, perhaps because the spiral sequence was choreographed to proceed quickly to the third and fourth spiral positions. Under the new system, she does need to hold that edge after the change for at least three seconds to get credit for the feature, so I expect we'll be seeing her hold it longer from now on.
And positions aside, sustaining flow after a change of edge is one thing Slutskaya is also very good at.
As for the flying sitspins, the normal flying sit, which you'll see in the junior short programs, would be, for a counterclockwise skater, either taking off from and landing/spinning on the left foot ("forward flying sit") or taking off from the left and landing/spinning on the right ("axel flying sit"). There isn't a requirement about how many rotations occur in the air, but for a skater who does get a high "fly" with a good tuck position, it may indeed be close to 1 1/2.
Taking off and landing on the same leg is one of the features toward a higher level for flying spins in the new system, so we should be seeing more of the forward flying sits with the current rules.
Sasha's hyperextension forces her to be more on the flat of the blade during her spiral, in order to maintain balance. When the skater's weight is on the flat of the blade, the glide path will be shortened because there is greater friction between the blade and the ice---the flat of the blade is a wider surface than the edge. Sasha starts the spiral on the inside edge but gradually shifts to the flat of the blade. She loses momentum while on the flat so when she changes to the outside edge, she doesn't get enough 'push' to sustain the spiral path past the edge change.
Maintaining balance on the inside edge during the first part of the spiral allows the skater to maintain momentum so that after the change to the outside edge, the spiral continues on a longer path.
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Maintaining balance on the inside edge during the first part of the spiral allows the skater to maintain momentum so that after the change to the outside edge, the spiral continues on a longer path.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
The Flat (or no edge)
One has to remember their first experience on the ice. In order to move one had to squirm their skater forward which were on the flat. The flat is the safest position for figure skating beginners Edging comes much later.
Some senior skaters still use the flat as a safety device.
The sit spin
Good post, gkelly. What I am looking for and especially in the european men (except Lambiel, of course) is a genuine sit down to the ice spin as Jackson Haines would have it.
However, a 'half' sit is ok for ornamental purposes, and there again is Lambiel making them interesting and innovative.
In my day, skaters would do an L spin into a L sit rise and repeat in one move.
Whew, hard on the body.
Joe
One has to remember their first experience on the ice. In order to move one had to squirm their skater forward which were on the flat. The flat is the safest position for figure skating beginners Edging comes much later.
Some senior skaters still use the flat as a safety device.
The sit spin
Good post, gkelly. What I am looking for and especially in the european men (except Lambiel, of course) is a genuine sit down to the ice spin as Jackson Haines would have it.
However, a 'half' sit is ok for ornamental purposes, and there again is Lambiel making them interesting and innovative.
In my day, skaters would do an L spin into a L sit rise and repeat in one move.
Whew, hard on the body.
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Excidra2001 said:I really do not understand some people sometimes. If Denis Biellmann is the standard when it comes to the biellman, does that make everyone else who attempts it or is doing it less "worthy"? The fact that Sasha has a better spiral, in terms of extension and beauty, then Kwan, does not make Kwan's less worthy.
I think people are forgetting that biellmann is very difficult, specially the biellman spiral, thats why its hard for me to believe when I hear young kids are doing it with so much ease and control. Irina is been doing the biellmann, only god knows how many years, it took her a while to actually perfect it and get it centered right, although she does tend to travel sometimes.
Its been a signature move for her, whether some people hate it or not, every where she goes, people want to see her biellmann.Denis Biellmann(although she was not the first to do the Biellmann) does a breath taking biellmann, its Irina who took the move, made it her own, and put it on the map.
As a competitor she's already at a disadvantage in terms of her illness, a smart competitor that she is, she'll always find ways to stay ahead of her competition. If that means "pimpin the biellmann" so be it.
I agree wholeheartedly. If Irina does not do the Bielmann as well as Denise, who cares, Denise is not skating as an amateur anymore, and hasnt for 24 years. Very few of the current women even attempt it, and none I have seen do it better than Irina. When Michelle Kwan or one of the Japanese women do a Bielmann spin like Denise's, I am going to win the Billion dollar lottery.
