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Thread: Sasha's LP music

  1. #106
    Custom Title dwiggin3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nymkfan51
    Sasha's exhibition was the Nino Rota movie version.

    I have to say, I think she does much better with feisty music, or something with some attitude (like her Malaguena SP)
    Her R&J exhibition was lovely, full of lots of WOW moves, but I don't know how it will translate when she has to add 7 jumping passes.
    And Morosov is choreographing both her programs.
    Nymkfan51....

    Very good point! She is much better with the feisty music...even if it's overused. It's as if she gets revved up...almost manic when skating to them. We see fire and passion!

    A couple of points I want to make:

    1. There is a very fine line I believe, that even Cohen has not learned to distinguish, between skating unabashed and letting go (which I think Kwan shows us how to do) and being manic and loosing your train of though (Cohen often does this, example falling out of a spin, losing an edge, usually very simple elements but causing the most glaring errors). Ask anyone who has suffered from mania, and they'll tell you there is a fine line between being on the verge of a manic episode and having the creative juices flowing and being down right out of control.

    2. I don't recall the R&J number...off hand was the music slow or fast? (It’s been a while since I've heard it, but I'm thinking it’s slow). I think that “Dark Eyes” was a good program, but I’m not certain it was *that* good that it was worth keeping. We can debate why a skater keeps a program – especially at her level, but I generally think it’s for several reasons (A) The skater and their handlers feel it’s a good program and since it’s not broke, no need to fix it (B) they’re concentrating on the LP and would rather not fiddle with a new SP (C) Comfort value. I think Sasha is choosing the comfort value. “Dark Eyes” is familiar, not a bad program etc. But, it’s not always wise to recycle a program in an Oly year…esp. if the program was not fantastic to begin with. I’m sure others will disagree.

    3. Both Kirk and Cohen seem to skate better to fast, feisty numbers...Kirk more the show tunes as she can have some attitude (Please, Please keep last years SP! ) and Cohen the more serious dramatic type.

    4. Someone posted that Cohn preferred to skate to music she felt comfortable with. I think that's very important but I often wonder what makes a piece of music "comfortable". I'm of the opinion that "comfortable/familiar (is in to the skater)” music does not have to mean well-known or frequently used. As a former skater myself, there were times when a coach would bring a selection of music to me that despite studying it, listening to it, improving to it, I never could become comfortable with it. But other times, I did learn to feel safe and secure in it. Sometimes it was a very unique selection and other times it was very popular. I'm wondering if Cohn has ever been given a somewhat original piece of music and even been allowed to get comfortable with it. I wonder further, if Cohn attributes “comfortable” with the familiarity of the music.

    Well, that’s my 2 cents – or more like an entire dollar. As I said on another NG, I’m not sure whey I/we continue to hold our breaths for Sasha to choose unique music selections year after year when she never has…so why I/we are disappointed is our own fault. At least she is consistent on this issue.

    Hopefully, Cohn will prove me wrong and someone can re-post this to shame me!

  2. #107
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    I think Sasha's choice to keep "Dark Eyes" is a great decision. It suits her style and she seems to relate well to the music. She didn't use it all that much last season, so I don't see any reason why she shouldn't bring it back. The international judges loved it at Worlds (where I believe it was the only time they saw it). She performed "Malaguena" much better in its second season of use, and the judges certainly didn't penalize her for recycling.

    I have mixed emotions concerning a "Romeo & Juliet" LP. Firstly, the Rota version is beautiful and I thought it was one of Sasha's finest programs (even if it was an exhibition). But, I also tend to think that Sasha is at her best (presentation wise) when she is skating to something faster. She seems spurred on and genuinely seems to feel that type of music. The icy or cautious/nervous reserve that sometimes overshadows her performances is often melted/muted. However, I thought she made significant strides last year in letting loose and skating with visible joy/emotion/heart, etc. in nearly every competition she entered. I thought her connection to and interpretation of "The Nutcracker" music was much stronger and overall more convincing than what she displayed in her "Swan Lake" and "Rach" LPs. It seems like Sasha was finally getting a bit more comfortable on the ice last season........I hope that carries through to the Olympic season. If this trend continues, then it honestly doesn't matter what type of music she chooses to use. She is a beautiful skater when she shakes off the nerves and allows her soul to shine through.

    So, "R&J" could be a great program.....it really depends on Sasha's mindset. She is one of the most stunning skaters on the planet when she skates with freedom. On the flip side, she is a good skater among a pack of great ones when she holds back. Strange, it seems, that I have always thought the same thing about Michelle. Perhaps these two skaters are far more similar than one would at first realize.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesslily
    Michelle did use several original, but not many people really like them. Red Violin is so depressing. Manderin or something did not even last for the 2001 season. I agree that many music choice were not Michelle's idea and decision. They were Lori Nicole's.
    Red violin is not depressing, it is edgy, full of pathos without despair. Mk used many original pieces and many people love the music

  4. #109
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    On the flip side, she is a good skater among a pack of great ones when she holds back. Strange, it seems, that I have always thought the same thing about Michelle. Perhaps these two skaters are far more similar than one would at first realize.
    Well, I'd be darned. I have thought this same thing too. The only difference I feel is that even when Cohen is on (think 04 worlds SP), I just don't "feel it" from her. She still comes off as cold. However, when Kwan is on I can definitely feel some vibes form her (probably because she is better than Cohen in conveying emotion- IMO) and therefore some "warmth". I also feel that Kwan (when she is not in her music) comes across a bit cool (but not cold like Cohen).

    The same can be said for any great skater. For a great skater to be great they have to skate great (think IS at 05 worlds, Kwan at 03 worlds). Otherwise when they give a sub-par performance they are just good.

    Of course, all this is JMO.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesslily

    Michelle Kwan mostly skated to the music that other skaters used one or few years before except 1998

    Michelle did use several original, but not many people really like them
    Jesslily, you seem to be contradicting yourself, so did MK mostly skated to the music that other skaters used or did she use several original??

    About your comment on MK mostly skated to music that other skaters used, just off the top of my head. Here are some of MK’s music and please tell me who has skated to these before MK:

    The Song of India
    Yellow River Piano Concerto
    Introduction and rondo caprricioso by Saint Saens
    Fiesta Flamenca – for her romanza program
    Dance of the 7 veils from Strauss opera Salome
    The Caucasian sketches by Ivanov
    Various orchestral suites and ballet suite by Massenet
    Adagio from the Red Poppy by Gliere
    Guilstan Baytay Shiraz by Amirov
    Piano trio Rachmaninov
    Piano cto #3 by Rachmaninov
    Lyra Angtelica cto for harp by Alwyn
    Gymnopedie #3 by Satie
    The Red violin chaccone
    A day in the life by the Beatles
    Piano trio op 90 Dumky by Dvorak
    Song of the black swan by villa lobos
    Miraculous Mandarin by Bartok

    I disagree with you that most people do not like these pieces, in fact many people including the ones outside of the skating fan community love these pieces. Many people prefer a more avant garde Miraculuos Mandarin by Bartok than a boring piece like the Pas des Deux from Nutcracker by PIT.

    Sasha’s best program is Hernando Hideaway
    Not sure whether that is Cohen’s best program, but the skater who really brought the life out of that piece of music is Tara Lipinski, Cohen’s interpretation of that piece of music did not even begin to touch Tara’s . (Tara skated to Dance with me, same music as Hernando Hideaway with different libtretto)
    Last edited by gezando; 08-25-2005 at 06:48 PM.

  6. #111
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    [QUOTE=Joesitz
    She did do the quad in her very first Skate America. She actually popped it into a one turn jump and if I remember correctly, fell. She then went on to fall on another jump. The program went down hill, but she was held up.

    She managed a 3x3 in 2003 at Worlds .


    Joe[/QUOTE]

    She also tried the quad at Finlandia Trophy, fully rotated, but didn't held on to the landing. Sasha did 3/0.5/3 combination sucessfully at Cambells and Crest competitons, and a similar combo at this year's Worlds.

  7. #112
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by registered
    She also tried the quad at Finlandia Trophy, fully rotated, but didn't held on to the landing. Sasha did 3/0.5/3 combination sucessfully at Cambells and Crest competitons, and a similar combo at this year's Worlds.
    I didn't know about the Finlandia quad. Good for Sasha. There was a TV show on figure skating technical a few months after 2002 Olys showing the scientific approach to the quad. Apparently, Tim Goebel and Sasha Cohen have the body types to complete the rotations I don't doubt that, but I will still need more proof. Yet when I see the quad jumpers, they are all narrow hipped. So the scientist has merit. I'm all for the last six to skate to take the risks. Ir's a long time till the next Oly.

    Joe

  8. #113
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    I didn't know about the Finlandia quad, either. But, I hope she isn't focusing on the quad much. She really needs to be able to complete 6/7 clean triple jumps in a LP first. And, honestly, with 6/7 clean triples, I don't believe she'll need a quad to contend for Gold. Perhaps a 3/3 would help, but even then I don't see that element being rewarded as highly as it was under the old system. I respect her for taking risks and not always "playing it safe", but what is the use of training/mastering a highly difficult element if you can't complete a clean LP full of the usual elements?

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezando
    Jesslily, you seem to be contradicting yourself, so did MK mostly skated to the music that other skaters used or did she use several original??

    About your comment on MK mostly skated to music that other skaters used, just off the top of my head. Here are some of MK’s music and please tell me who has skated to these before MK:

    The Song of India
    Yellow River Piano Concerto
    Introduction and rondo caprricioso by Saint Saens
    Fiesta Flamenca – for her romanza program
    Dance of the 7 veils from Strauss opera Salome
    The Caucasian sketches by Ivanov
    Various orchestral suites and ballet suite by Massenet
    Adagio from the Red Poppy by Gliere
    Guilstan Baytay Shiraz by Amirov
    Piano trio Rachmaninov
    Piano cto #3 by Rachmaninov
    Lyra Angtelica cto for harp by Alwyn
    Gymnopedie #3 by Satie
    The Red violin chaccone
    A day in the life by the Beatles
    Piano trio op 90 Dumky by Dvorak
    Song of the black swan by villa lobos
    Miraculous Mandarin by Bartok

    I disagree with you that most people do not like these pieces, in fact many people including the ones outside of the skating fan community love these pieces. Many people prefer a more avant garde Miraculuos Mandarin by Bartok than a boring piece like the Pas des Deux from Nutcracker by PIT....
    Wow! We agree twice in one night! I agree that no other skater besides Michelle I can think of skated to the list you have provided.

    But Michelle did not choose these pieces of music, at least not according to Christine Brennan's articles. Lori Nichol chose the music. In 1996, Lori played a number of selections of music until she came upon one, "Salome," that Michelle liked and related to. After that, again according to Brennan, Lori chose the music, no matter what Michelle felt.

    I have no citation for this, but the "forum talk" was that in addition to her problems with Frank Carroll, Michelle also split with Lori because she didn't like skating to the music Lori chose. Again, it's just forum talk, but it is interesting to note that Michelle has gone with standards rather than avant garde music since taking over her artistic decisions. I prefer Lori's musical choices, but if Michelle is happier skating to "Tosca" than "Miraculous Mandarin," isn't that what's most important for a skater of Michelle's calibre?

    Rgirl -- Poor Nate is Dead, But He was a Jerk

  10. #115
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    Langing certain jumps individually in practice and in program in competition are tatolly two different things. On good day and good ice, a skater with happy mood can land 20 quads in a row. On a competition ice, 5 other top skaters warm up with you together, you may not land triples you could do easily every day.

    Michelle's most music after 2002 are the music people used a lot. So it gave fans impressions that she always used the overused music even before 2002 she had or was told to use original music. Don'y misunderstand me, I wish Michelle win a medal 2006, maybe a gold.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by BronzeisGolden
    I think Sasha's choice to keep "Dark Eyes" is a great decision. It suits her style and she seems to relate well to the music. She didn't use it all that much last season, so I don't see any reason why she shouldn't bring it back. The international judges loved it at Worlds (where I believe it was the only time they saw it). She performed "Malaguena" much better in its second season of use, and the judges certainly didn't penalize her for recycling.

    I have mixed emotions concerning a "Romeo & Juliet" LP. Firstly, the Rota version is beautiful and I thought it was one of Sasha's finest programs (even if it was an exhibition). But, I also tend to think that Sasha is at her best (presentation wise) when she is skating to something faster. She seems spurred on and genuinely seems to feel that type of music. The icy or cautious/nervous reserve that sometimes overshadows her performances is often melted/muted. However, I thought she made significant strides last year in letting loose and skating with visible joy/emotion/heart, etc. in nearly every competition she entered. I thought her connection to and interpretation of "The Nutcracker" music was much stronger and overall more convincing than what she displayed in her "Swan Lake" and "Rach" LPs. It seems like Sasha was finally getting a bit more comfortable on the ice last season........I hope that carries through to the Olympic season. If this trend continues, then it honestly doesn't matter what type of music she chooses to use. She is a beautiful skater when she shakes off the nerves and allows her soul to shine through.

    So, "R&J" could be a great program.....it really depends on Sasha's mindset. She is one of the most stunning skaters on the planet when she skates with freedom. On the flip side, she is a good skater among a pack of great ones when she holds back. Strange, it seems, that I have always thought the same thing about Michelle. Perhaps these two skaters are far more similar than one would at first realize.
    Great post! I agree when she skates with freedom she's one of the most stunning skaters. But that doesn't happen often at all. A lot of times I see her as being 'cautious' regarding her expression or her feelings with the music, and that's why some find her cold. When I saw her R&J, she was different, she let herself shine. I believe that when she's comfortable with her program in general(2004 worlds SP)she delivers it best. And she will be more comfortable since she knows the music.

  12. #117
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    Sasha never seems comfortable or in control during a FS at a major competition. She seems tense and scared, and she is unable to project whatever feeling there is in the music. That's why I think it is not a good idea for her to do music she is very familiar with, particularly music with a slow tempo. She'd be better off with fiery fast music that would keep her attention focused on the tempo rather than on the individual moves.

    I keep picturing images of her "Swan Lake" at 2004 Worlds and "Nutcracker" at 2005 Worlds, where she approached every move as if she was skating on eggshells. She should be using muscle memory instead of fussing over every element, and up-tempo music would almost force her to do that.

    Her pre-occupation with not falling comes between her and her schmaltzy music, so that you don't see any emotion or interpretation from her---she just looks tense and scared.

  13. #118
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    Sasha

    I dont think Sasha worrys too much about music or landing jumps because with the NJS she can make mistakes and spin to win. There was a journal where she spoke of her spins and then added well you still have to do the jumps as if she was concentrating on spins first and formost. I dont think this is a good mindset for any skater however it seems she gets away with the spin you win.

  14. #119
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Sasha's legendary QR performance in Dortmund showed that she can do a near perfect routine. IMO, her performance in Moscow, albeit faulty, did show she had some warmth.

    Combining the two, we should have a gold medalist in Torino. It's taking some time but she is moving along nicely, imo. But I agree with Sasha detractors that her mindset is all wrong and so it's just a hope that she skates as well as she can.

    Joe

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    If Irina does a FS in Torino equal to what she did in Moscow, Sasha's flubbed jumps will keep her off the top step of the podium just as they did at Worlds 2005. I think the OGM will go to a complete skater. Fantastic spins but inconsistent, wonky jumps has won Sasha two World silvers but no golds. She is vulnerable to an exuberant clean performance by one or more skaters, including Irina, Shizuka, Michelle and Carolina.

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