New Sasha journal ... 8/24/05

~Rainbow~ said:

When will Sasha choose something challenging, different, and basically un-used like Bjork, Sigur Ros, Emiliana Torrini, Goldfrapp, Poe, Evanescence, Radiohead etc. Of course this isn't what you'd exactly call skating music but it would be nice to see her skate to some dark, haunting, gothic, ethereal music. She has such lovely skating though I don't know if anyone can skate to that music.

Now I have an image of her skating to "All is full of love." by Bjork. I actually think she would do better with "Pagan Poetry."

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THAT right there, is purely your wish only my friend.

Just kidding- well sort of. The point here is, these are all illusions- wishes of the fans on skaters. It's pretty unlikely to happen, unless someone in the know really wants to try and stretch these skaters' minds. Sort of like with Kwan in the 90s. JMHO. Your mileage may (or will) vary.

I'm probably going to rattle a few minds here by saying this. Nothing wrong with saying what you want your favorite skater to skate to. But personally, I don't feel as if skaters should be penalized by the fans for their music choices. By this I don't mean saying that the music is boring/repetitive/whatever (because that's on the music and not the skater) but just saying that, in a nutshell, the skater is not worth anything by choosing that particular song. This is just my opinion guys; a strong one, but an opinion nonetheless.

Red Dog said:

in a nutshell, the skater is not worth anything by choosing that particular song. This is just my opinion guys; a strong one, but an opinion nonetheless.

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No that is not what is a nutshell IMO. Since there are pages of discussions written here at GS about how skating is half art and half sports (BTW, prior to those discussions, I advocated that skating is a sports). Therefore when a skater like Cohen who is unwilling to face up to music challenges and repeatedly skating to the same old pieces for her competition (exceeding uninteresting pieces without much theme variations, or tempo changes or rhythm changes) ad nauseum that is in my opinion and just a strong opinion, is evidence that she either is lacking in the artistic challenge side of skating, or is unwilling to face up the challenge. Actually, skating to a more complicated piece of music with more theme variations, tempo changes, and rhythm changes do offer more artistic challenge maybe even technical challenge to a skater IMO.

In terms of theme variations, that may require a skater to challenge herself on how she interprets the mood of the theme, if there are themes or at least some theme variations in a piece of music, then you have a chance to see if the skater is at least willing to face up to this challenge. (watch how Lu lu handled the Butterfly lovers violin concerto)

Tempo and rhythm variations in a piece of music may offer the challenge to a skater to vary their speed or require the skater to vary their interpretation of the piece at the change of the tempo and rhythm. (refer you back to Lulu's Butterfly lovers violin cto again)

In another words, people can't have it both ways, on the one hand argue that skating is half art and half sport, and Cohen is artistically God's gift to skating, then OTOH, argue that skating is just a sport, and facing music challenge in the art side of skating does not matter.

Now maybe Cohen is not capable of taking on more versatile musical challenges for her competitive programs, who knows. I always advocate that skating is a sports, if they do the spin, land the jumps etc they should be rewarded.

Red Dog said:

To change the subject a little (what a travesty ), do people know Kwan's music yet? What if SHE comes up with a "warhorse"? What if other skaters come up with "warhorses?" Will this same argument/issue apply to them as well? Hmm...(BTW, I think it should.)

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I think the difference is that Kwan has had some unique pieces in her competitive repertoire, so her using warhorses now is not as egregious as it is for a talented skater like Cohen, who has NEVER used music that hasn't been skated to death by other skaters. Other than her most ardent fans, Sasha will never be associated or remembered for a signature competitive piece (a la Salome or Lyra - well, for me it's Salome. And even my idiot football-loving brother remembers Salome). I think that's a travesty. Sasha is not my favorite, but I recognize that she hits some wonderful positions in her skating. Personally I think she (or her team) does her an enormous disservice by not having her demonstrate her unique abilities through a unique piece of music that would forever be associated with her.

Skate Sandee said:

I think the difference is that Kwan has had some unique pieces in her competitive repertoire, so her using warhorses .......

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But some old war horses still offer artistic challenges to skaters in terms of complex themes etc. Cohen had chosen old war horses ad nausem so far in her competitive programs. Kwan had done so in the past 3 years. Then there are pieces that absolutely offers no challenge in terms of dynmaic (mood changes) etc, and among the top lady skaters, only Cohen can claim this one.
Take Arakawa's example of PIT's R and J, old war horse yes, but loaded with artistic and technical challenge.

I am not sure we can say it is Cohen's team's responsibility, she is going on 21, and her competitive music choices hasn't changed since she was a novice / junior. I tend to speculate it is Cohen's choice. The only time something that is more artistically and musically challenging she skated to was TT's Swan Lake, and we know what happened to that one.

Sasha seems to like to stay in the comfort zone. She feels comfortable with this music, and she knows she can interpret(sp?) it well. I too would have loved to see her with something original, but maybe she's not ready for that right now. She had a very difficult last season so maybe she just needs to relax and 'take it easy' at least on that part of the preparation. The olympics probably make her very nervous and the last thing she needs is a totaly new program to adjast to. Some people need that in order to deliver..There are skaters who learn a new program and really go into it in a very small amount of time. Maybe Sasha isn't like that. In any way, personally, I can't wait to see her program. :agree:

gezando...i really don't disagree with a thing you have said...I guess i'm just saying that for whatever reason, team Sasha has strategically decided to make the music choices 'easy' (i.e. artistic challenges, and relatively speaking) to focus on delivering the sport part (execute elements cleanly), I assume figuring (no pun intended) that her execution when clean is so beautiful in extension, line etc that she will appear so artistic that the flatness of her music will go unoticed.

again....i really don't think she is the first to do this...although reusing the short and the long (and i realize the latter is a bit of a stretch for some as it is a revamped/transformed exhibition number so will be seen as new to many) is perhaps a first (i can't think of another example).

I also totally agree with your take on Chen Lu's butterfly lovers....and TT/Sasha Swan Lake.

I disagree that using music previously used for an EX number = re-using an LP. The elements and program layout will have to be completely different than the EX number based on the rules, and the points, etc. I don't believe anyone knows at this point if the cuts in the music will even be the same. And even if the cuts are very similar, who cares?

While I would love to see Sasha doing something more original music wise, I'm looking forward to her competitive version of R&J.

DG

Doggygirl said:

I disagree that using music previously used for an EX number = re-using an LP. The elements and program layout will have to be completely different than the EX number based on the rules, and the points, etc. I don't believe anyone knows at this point if the cuts in the music will even be the same. And even if the cuts are very similar, who cares?

While I would love to see Sasha doing something more original music wise, I'm looking forward to her competitive version of R&J.

DG

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Right...we will have to see which version and cuts she uses...it's only the same in so far as the title until we see the actual program; but it is very similiar at the same time, hence why some people feel she is taking the easy route.

Clearly reusing the SAME program raises more eyebrows, and my sense is using the same Free skate raises more eyebrows than using the same short (but i could be wrong here)...but it has been done by more than one competitor. ETA: i just want to add again, though, that a resused program may not be scored down, but we talk about it differently...all the commentators, for example, praised Shen and Zhoa's world's 2003 Turandot..'it sang!'...all mentioned more than once, also, that it was the same program (just better) used the year before...why mention it if it is irrelevant to our impression of the difficulty artistically/athletically?

Sure, everybody would like to see her do something different. Really, who wouldn't?

My point is, though, that since she can get away with re-using old pieces, she won't be penalized for it and she still has a shot at the top. She doesn't exactly strike me as the "adventurous" type. But ITA with the poster(s) that said that maybe she is comfortable with this piece and that major competitions seem to unnerve her. On top of this, she seems to really love this piece- and that is what matters in the end to the skater.

I'm simply pointing out the other side of the story. It's easy for us to sit here and say that she should do something original, when there could be more to the story.

The reason I mentioned other skaters in my other post is that I'm more than sure there are other skaters who stay in their comfort zones. A certain MK seems to be guilty of doing that since of late... (OK, I just threw that last one in there for kicks.)

Now, ITA that Cohen's musical choices don't have much variety. That's almost indisputable. As I said, certain fans think she's a "pretty skater" and want to see her stretch herself out (musically), and that's fine by me IMO. I suppose it's the fact I don't care that much that makes me indifferent to all this, really. Honestly, I could care less what cohen chooses to skate to (it's cool to find out though). This applies to other skaters as well. And that is what makes me a "non-fan".

Certain other skaters simply seem to be more adventurous. Cohen to me seems to be the one to stick with the tried and true, and that's the "safe" route. Now, if she wants this to work out, she'd better back it up with some moves to show us she's worthy enough of a podium spot. Otherwise it would be a re-used, old, boring piece. Remember what I said before about risk-taking. It's not so much the music, but the content (IMO, of course).

Let's see if other skaters will get criticized once they take the tried and true method (and I'm sure some will).

Skate Sandee said:

I think the difference is that Kwan has had some unique pieces in her competitive repertoire, so her using warhorses now is not as egregious as it is for a talented skater like Cohen, who has NEVER used music that hasn't been skated to death by other skaters. Other than her most ardent fans, Sasha will never be associated or remembered for a signature competitive piece (a la Salome or Lyra - well, for me it's Salome. And even my idiot football-loving brother remembers Salome). I think that's a travesty. Sasha is not my favorite, but I recognize that she hits some wonderful positions in her skating. Personally I think she (or her team) does her an enormous disservice by not having her demonstrate her unique abilities through a unique piece of music that would forever be associated with her.

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in a way, I agree with you (but only with your last sentence, lol). But I don't think it's her that's being done the disservice- it's her fans. I don't think she really cares much. After all, she still has the potential to win, doesn't she? If she knew she was being done a disservice she would have chosen something different. She doesn't strike me as the passive kind. I think she will go for what she wants no matter what anyone else tries to tell her. JMO of course.

On the other hand, her fans love her (and some of her non-fans seem to enjoy watching her too) and want to see her branch out and get that "signature piece" that every skating fan will associate her with. After all, don't most of the great skaters have at least one signature piece?

I really think the difference here is that Cohen is NOT a great skater. I define great here as a skater who has one at least one or two major titles. Sure, two silver medals are nothing to sneeze at, but it doesn't make her one of the greats. I think because of her talent people put her higher up than she really should be. What about some of the other "flash in the pan" skaters? Are they remembered by a signature piece that they made their own? Or are they just remembered for winning Title X?

I really don't care too much of musical 'reused'(by the same skater) and/or 'overused'(by diff skater).

IMHO, for 'reused' all skaters or at least those less experienced with musical interpretation ones should reused the music at least two season until they skated to it to full potential. Case in examples, Like S/Z's with their Turandot until it hit the top at 2003 worlds; Pan/Tong with their LP (repeated several seasons) until they finally do the justis with it and hit it with their 3rd place finish at 2004 Worlds....As for overused music, diff skater has diff feeling to the music, diff interpretation. If they like the old warhorse music and try to overdo their peer, more power to them, let them try....and meanwhile you can collect all versions interpreted by diff skater try to see which one you like the best?

Personally I don't see the problem with skaters using overused music. In the end, all that matters is whether the skaters deliver or not. And, some music is overused because it's great music for skating, so no mystery why so many would want to use it.
In Sasha's case, I think her choice of music ... for me ... gives me an idea of her mindset right now. She's looking for "comfortable" so that things might go better for her. There's nothing wrong with that, it just says to me that maybe her confidence level is not where she would like it to be right now. But who knows, it may work out just fine for her. And it certainly doesn't bother me as a fan if she skates to R&J. It's nice enough music, so I don't think I will suffer any from having to listen to it.

nymkfan51 said:

In Sasha's case, I think her choice of music ... for me ... gives me an idea of her mindset right now. She's looking for "comfortable" so that things might go better for her. There's nothing wrong with that, it just says to me that maybe her confidence level is not where she would like it to be right now. But who knows, it may work out just fine for her.

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I happen to agree. I see this as the primary "reason" (read: speculation) that she made the choice that she did.

Doggygirl said:

I disagree that using music previously used for an EX number = re-using an LP. The elements and program layout will have to be completely different than the EX number based on the rules, and the points, etc.

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You are making a point for the technical side of skating, not the artistic side in terms of musical challenge side of skating

I don't believe anyone knows at this point if the cuts in the music will even be the same.

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There are no cuts in Dark Eyes, it is a Russian roma folk song, same theme, same tempo same rhythm, you can not cut it anymore You can't make Dark Eyes cuts, just like you can not make row row row the boat cuts

The R and J may offer some more potential for theme variations. But really do you remember any oly medalist repeating both their sp and lp music??

Red Dog said:

My point is, though, that since she can get away with re-using old pieces, she won't be penalized for it

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Well that is the cautious,and conservative strategy that many of Cohen's fans are accusing of some others of doing.

But ITA with the poster(s) that said that maybe she is comfortable with this piece and that major competitions seem to unnerve her.

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What makes you think that she won't be unnerved even with the overused (relative to herself repeated ad nauseum Dark Eyes)

On top of this, she seems to really love this piece- and that is what matters in the end to the skater.

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I love Dark Eyes too, heard it many times in restaurants But as a competitive skating piece, it is monothematic, with no variations, BORING

I'm simply pointing out the other side of the story.

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Nothing much to that story, you too agree, Cohen is unwilling or unable to face an artistic or music challenge. She is taking the approach skate to avoid penalty. And even if she is skating to Dark Eyes for the first time it is a very boring piece of music that does not offer much challenge for interpretation.

A certain MK seems to be guilty of doing that since of late... (OK, I just threw that last one in there for kicks.)

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And you never fail to bring that up.

, I could care less what cohen chooses to skate to

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I do believe you said in another thread no matter what Cohen skates to , she does not move you, or she comes across as totally cold???

mzheng said:

IMHO, for 'reused' all skaters or at least those less experienced with musical interpretation ones should reused the music at least two season until they skated to it to full potential. Case in examples, Like S/Z's with their Turandot until it hit the top at 2003 worlds;

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Are S&Z or P&T repeating both their short and long for oly 06??
2 times as a competitive program, is IMO very different from 4 times, and Cohen will be using Dark Eyes for the 4th time as a competitive program. Reusing one program is very different from reusing both long and short. And honestly Turandot is much more complex a piece of music compare to Dark eyes. Dark Eyes has as much complexity and depth as Row row row your boat

About a collection of diff skaters who have done amazing job in interpreting a great piece of music, sure I have Boitano, Sarah Hughes and S&Z versions of it, but Turandot is a beautiful piece of music. Cohen skating to the Russian equivalent of row row row you boat four times is not the same as Boitano, and S&Z's Turandot
Most likely, Cohen loves to stay in her comfort zone, and is unwilling or unable to face the musical challlenge. She got to do what she got to do. IMO her artistic , musical side of skating is average among the top tier skaters. Cohen is definitely no Chen Lu when it comes to the artistic, musical interpretations. BTW was Lu 19 or 20 when she skated to Butterfly Lovers VC

Just wondering ... didn't Sasha skate her R&J program last night at the Sun Valley show? I can't find anything about it anywhere. Did anyone go, or have a review?

I read somewhere that Verona (where "Romeo & Juliet" is set) is only about an hour from Torino. I wonder if this had any effect on Sasha's choice?

attyfan said:

I read somewhere that Verona (where "Romeo & Juliet" is set) is only about an hour from Torino. I wonder if this had any effect on Sasha's choice?

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There are TMTC (too many to count) good pieces on Romeo Juliet, Prokofiev, Delius, Berlioz, Tchaikovsky just off the top of my head. The R and J that Cohen used was a period ballad titled What is a Youth