Low-Tech Compulsory Program? | Golden Skate

Low-Tech Compulsory Program?

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SkateFan4Life

Guest
I would like to see the ISU discard the qualifying round from the World Championships. In my opinion, this phase of the competition could be discarded and replaced with a compulsory "low-technical" skate. I would love to see all of the skaters who qualify for Worlds perform a three-minute routine with single and double jumps. No triples, no quads. Just singles, doubles, a few required spins, and footwork. Let's see them show their mastery of the basic moves, jumps and spins.

In my opinion, any singles skater who qualifies to compete at Worlds should automatically qualify to skate in the entire competition. Let them ALL skate the compulsory low-technical program, the short program, and the long program.

Granted, this would entail preparing an additional program; however, given its less demanding nature, it could be done and performed with limited wear and tear on the skaters. At the very least, they would not be faced with the prospect of skating their long program twice, and perhaps blowing it the first time and not qualifying for the short program.

If the field remains at 30 skaters or so, that's the way it is. The judges may feel bleary-eyed at judging yet another phase of the competition, so why not bring in a separate judging panel to score just the "low-technical" skate?

I would absolutely LOVE to see the men and women perform routines reminiscent of the golden days of skating - with just singles and doubles.

What do you think? This may not be feasible, but it's a enticing thought!! :biggrin:
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
SkateFan4Life said:
Granted, this would entail preparing an additional program; however, given its less demanding nature, it could be done and performed with limited wear and tear on the skaters.

More wear and tear on their wallets, though, if they have to pay for choreography for three programs, and/or extra costumes. And more programs to practice, which would mean more total hours on the ice for training (which also requires more money).

If what you're most concerned about is the stress of landing triples and quads in the qual round, a simpler solution would be to have them skate their long programs but not allow triples or quads, so they could do double jumps (or single axels for those who struggle with double axels), and get rewarded for the quality of the double jumps and the rest of the program, which they would probably be able to perform better in those circumstances.

At the very least, they would not be faced with the prospect of skating their long program twice, and perhaps blowing it the first time and not qualifying for the short program.

If the field remains at 30 skaters or so, that's the way it is.

Wait, if you don't want to make cuts after the qualifying rounds, what is the point of having them in the first place? The whole point of qual rounds is to cut the field to a manageable size, which is exactly why competitions with fewer than 32 skaters entered never had them, and they've even been dropped from Europeans now although there might be about 35 skaters in the short program.

30 or 35 is stretching manageable, at least for a short program -- 45 for a long program is not. And there are indeed 40-50 competitors at Worlds and Junior Worlds.

The judges may feel bleary-eyed at judging yet another phase of the competition, so why not bring in a separate judging panel to score just the "low-technical" skate?

It's not so much getting bleary-eyed having a long week as having a long day. Which is why the qual rounds are judged by two separate judging panels.

Precisely to avoid any one individual having to sit and stay alert through six or seven hours worth of a single competition.

Then some of the judges on those panels get drawn for later phases of the competition, and some don't.

At least with the new system they don't have to make direct comparisons between skaters in the first and last groups and all those in between, but fatigue would still be a factor.

If you didn't cut the field after each phase, then you would need to maintain two panels for the later phases as well. Since they would presumably be seeded on the basis of qual round or short program finish, essentially you'd have a final round for the top 24 and a consolation round with a different panel of judges for the skaters who didn't make that cut.

I would absolutely LOVE to see the men and women perform routines reminiscent of the golden days of skating - with just singles and doubles.

I think there are other possible ways to accomplish that.

One would be to get rid of the short program and replace it with a elements competitions for jumps and spins (as at Bofrost the last couple years of its existence), and also a skating skills/musical interpretation program without jumps or spins.

Another way would be to hold a completely separate event in a new discipline that would not allow triple or quad jumps, or maybe even doubles, but would emphasize non-jump skills to a higher level than is possible in a program full of triples. Although skaters would be allowed to enter that event as well as the standard freestyle event, just as one can enter a pair and/or dance event as well as singles, chances are that at the highest levels there would be different individuals excelling in the low-jump event and the standard event.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I would like a 3 minute program consisting of required elements (no options and no exceptions) including same MIFs and footwork. All contestants would skate to exactly the same music.

Comparisons will be inevitable but so what. That's the point. Boring it will be after the 12th skater but so what. Judges should be able to cope. No need to hire a choreographer. the program would be written out in advance for all skaters to learn it and practice it in June if not later.

The contest would take place early in the week with the 4.5 minute free skate in the latter part of the week. There would be plenty of rest in between.

The result, imo, a very decisive way to see who is the better skater.

Joe
 

thisthingcalledlove

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Joesitz said:
I would like a 3 minute program consisting of required elements (no options and no exceptions) including same MIFs and footwork. All contestants would skate to exactly the same music.

Comparisons will be inevitable but so what. That's the point. Boring it will be after the 12th skater but so what. Judges should be able to cope. No need to hire a choreographer. the program would be written out in advance for all skaters to learn it and practice it in June if not later.

The contest would take place early in the week with the 4.5 minute free skate in the latter part of the week. There would be plenty of rest in between.

The result, imo, a very decisive way to see who is the better skater.

Joe

I remember back in the 1996 Olympics, gymnastics had something similar in the team competition. They had compulsory routines (where everyone performed the same thing...same floor exercise, etc) and then the optional
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
We get this thread about every season or so. Yes, I think that would be a good idea. However, as some have pointed out in the past, perhaps it would just be easier to bring back the figures.
 

brad640

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
thisthingcalledlove said:
I remember back in the 1996 Olympics, gymnastics had something similar in the team competition. They had compulsory routines (where everyone performed the same thing...same floor exercise, etc) and then the optional

I remember watching the qualifying round in 96 and thinking how interesting it was to see the gymnasts perform identical routines because it revealed who was more skilled at the basic elements. It was most effective on the floor routines because it showed which gymnasts had the best interpretive abilities. I remember watching several gymnasts perform the compulsory floor routine and thinking that the music was just playing in the background while they did their tumbling, and then when Lilia Podkopayeva performed, the choreography suddenly made sense because she was actually listening to the music.

I think the idea of a compulsory skating routine would be good if all the skaters had the same music and choreography to make it easier to compare musicality and interpretive ability.
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
I love Joe's idea, but I would miss short programs (as they are now, some of which are the best all around programs i've ever seen)...but it would be really great to compare the same set of elements to the same music with a standard costume (like a uniform if you will). I think figures coming back isn't awful (makes for better edge control), but even more unlikely than Joe's idea. Joe's idea let's skater's continue to train jumps, spins, mitf as they currently are doing (without the hours on ice a day tracing figures) with no substantial change to that routine; allows judges to continue judging as they do now (with the training and equipment they have now), and could even allow the networks to continue broadcasting as they do now, I mean they hardly show short programs anyway, now they would have an excuse to show only the top 3-5.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If you were going to have a compulsory program in which everybody does the same elements, then it really would have to be "low-tech" in the sense of very basic elements. No triple jumps (no double axels for novices, or other doubles below novice), and only basic spin (or spiral) positions.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
thisthingcalledlove said:
I remember back in the 1996 Olympics, gymnastics had something similar in the team competition. They had compulsory routines (where everyone performed the same thing...same floor exercise, etc) and then the optional
In International Ballet Competitions, too!! All contestants are lined up with a partner and all the couples have to do the well-known pas de deux. There are sevral weeks of practice sessions where the couples learn the dance and get used to each other.

Those who are not eliminated get to dance a complete Classic pas de deux including solo variations and codas. Next day if they are not eliminated, they perform an original solo dance.

The scores are tallied and voila gold, silve and bronze awarded but more important is can some company give them a job. BTW, the judges can withhold medals if in their opinion, the contestant did not come up to standard.
_ _ _ _ _ _

Bringing back figures is an excellent idea but if you read emma's post she will miss the short program as will many other fans. I just don't think the SP is cut out to do what the intent of the SP was to be all about. It doesn't judge skaters equally. JMO.

Joe
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Joesitz said:
Bringing back figures is an excellent idea but if you read emma's post she will miss the short program as will many other fans. I just don't think the SP is cut out to do what the intent of the SP was to be all about. It doesn't judge skaters equally. JMO.

Joe

I agree completely that it (the SP) doesn't really judge skaters equally as it is currently designed. I don't think it would have to be 'really low tech' as one poster said...a triple-double, solo triple, and double axel could be required...it would just be that all skaters would do the same triple-double in the same spot...etc.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
emma said:
I don't think it would have to be 'really low tech' as one poster said...a triple-double, solo triple, and double axel could be required...it would just be that all skaters would do the same triple-double in the same spot...etc.

So let's say you're a senior lady who has three strong, consistent triples, and on the other three jumps (including axel of course) your doubles are not nearly strong enough to allow you to rotate triples from those takeoffs.

If the triples chosen for the combination and the jump out of steps happen to be the ones that you're good at, you're in luck. A clean program is well within your grasp. If the triples chosen are the ones that you can't do at all, too bad, you're destined to take big deductions on those two elements, so you won't have a prayer against another skater who also only has three triples but hers happened to be the ones chosen.

If you're going to require the same jumps from everyone, I would say, either make the requirements really difficult so that almost no one will skate a clean program, or else make them really easy so that everyone has a chance to skate clean.

Really difficult would be triple lutz out of steps (and make them fairly difficult steps that will force the skater to demonstrate counterrotation) and double loop-triple loop for the combination -- that way, most of the skaters are going to make mistakes, leveling the playing field in some sense, and allowing anyone who actually can pull it off cleanly, or at least whoever makes the smallest mistakes, to be rewarded commensurately.

Really easy . . . well, if you insist on triples, then triple toe-double toe and triple salchow out of steps. Except there are some skaters who for whatever reason don't find those to be the easiest triples and actually master the so-called harder ones first.

Which is why I say that if you want a program that everyone should be capable of skating cleanly, then stick to double jumps for seniors, juniors, and novices, and then judge the quality of those jumps and of the rest of the elements.

(Yes, the jump out of steps is currently specified for juniors. But they also have the option of doing either triple or double, and often a clean program with a double jump will prevail over a failed attempt at the triple.)
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
gkelly said:
So let's say you're a senior lady who has three strong, consistent triples, and on the other three jumps (including axel of course) your doubles are not nearly strong enough to allow you to rotate triples from those takeoffs.

If the triples chosen for the combination and the jump out of steps happen to be the ones that you're good at, you're in luck. A clean program is well within your grasp. If the triples chosen are the ones that you can't do at all, too bad, you're destined to take big deductions on those two elements, so you won't have a prayer against another skater who also only has three triples but hers happened to be the ones chosen.

If you're going to require the same jumps from everyone, I would say, either make the requirements really difficult so that almost no one will skate a clean program, or else make them really easy so that everyone has a chance to skate clean.

Really difficult would be triple lutz out of steps (and make them fairly difficult steps that will force the skater to demonstrate counterrotation) and double loop-triple loop for the combination -- that way, most of the skaters are going to make mistakes, leveling the playing field in some sense, and allowing anyone who actually can pull it off cleanly, or at least whoever makes the smallest mistakes, to be rewarded commensurately.

Really easy . . . well, if you insist on triples, then triple toe-double toe and triple salchow out of steps. Except there are some skaters who for whatever reason don't find those to be the easiest triples and actually master the so-called harder ones first.

Which is why I say that if you want a program that everyone should be capable of skating cleanly, then stick to double jumps for seniors, juniors, and novices, and then judge the quality of those jumps and of the rest of the elements.

(Yes, the jump out of steps is currently specified for juniors. But they also have the option of doing either triple or double, and often a clean program with a double jump will prevail over a failed attempt at the triple.)

I hear what you are saying, but it is no different than figures...not everyone did them well, period, but they were designed to test where each skater was in basic skill (at an elite level, of course). Some great skaters bombed figures, so great figure skaters had lousy long programs....ultimately, I guess we can debate forever what constitutes a consensus on minimal basic skills (at the elite level), and it will never map perfectly onto the athletes of that moment....(gosh, I just had a flash to Midori Ito and how she was fairly lously at figures but took your breath away jumping...and the irony that when figures were done, she was unable to take real advantage of that).
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
emma said:
I hear what you are saying, but it is no different than figures...not everyone did them well, period, but they were designed to test where each skater was in basic skill (at an elite level, of course). Some great skaters bombed figures, so great figure skaters had lousy long programs....ultimately, I guess we can debate forever what constitutes a consensus on minimal basic skills (at the elite level), and it will never map perfectly onto the athletes of that moment....(gosh, I just had a flash to Midori Ito and how she was fairly lously at figures but took your breath away jumping...and the irony that when figures were done, she was unable to take real advantage of that).
Great figure skaters who did not do well in the Free Skate did have great edges and flow. Great Free Skaters who did not do well in the school figures had great jumps and spins but many lacked basics. Skaters who had both good figures and good free skates were very special GREAT skaters.

Back to this second topic. My proposed compulsory free skate together with gkelly's suggestion of limiting the contents of progam to double jumps and maybe simple spins would take away from you seeing a mini LP, which obviously, you don't want. That's ok a compulsory free skate is just a proposal by someone who has absolutely no power to make it happen. We will continue the SP with choices of Quints or quads for the men and quads or 3.5s for the Ladies and pay little attention as to how they connect these jumps and have no importance to the flow and edging of the skaters.

Joe
 

thisthingcalledlove

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Joesitz said:
Great figure skaters who did not do well in the Free Skate did have great edges and flow. Great Free Skaters who did not do well in the school figures had great jumps and spins but many lacked basics. Skaters who had both good figures and good free skates were very special GREAT skaters.

Back to this second topic. My proposed compulsory free skate together with gkelly's suggestion of limiting the contents of progam to double jumps and maybe simple spins would take away from you seeing a mini LP, which obviously, you don't want. That's ok a compulsory free skate is just a proposal by someone who has absolutely no power to make it happen. We will continue the SP with choices of Quints or quads for the men and quads or 3.5s for the Ladies and pay little attention as to how they connect these jumps and have no importance to the flow and edging of the skaters.

Joe


How about an improvisational short program? Two hours before they are to skate, each skater is given a piece of music. They can then choreograph it themselves (no help from coaches/choreographers) and are given a list of elements they must use. The music will be the same for each skater, so that things like the proscribed spiral sequence can be the same. To prevent skaters from knowing what piece of music is being used, they will be sequestered in a locker room somewhere before they are to skate. After they finish, they must rejoin their coach either to watch the rest of the event or to go to another part of the arena, or back to their hotels. A lot of work for officials and the host, but I'd like to also see not just a skater's ability to perform basic moves, but their basic choreographing abilities.
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Joesitz said:
My proposed compulsory free skate together with gkelly's suggestion of limiting the contents of progam to double jumps and maybe simple spins would take away from you seeing a mini LP, which obviously, you don't want.
Joe

You know Joe, all I said is that I would miss the SP as it is now because I have seen some truly beautiful ones. I didn't say: :cry: :cry: :cry: and have a temper tantrum and demand that it stay. Actually, what I did was say I agree (more or less) with your idea because today's short program does not 'measure' the basic skill level across a field. Additionally, all i said was that you could have triples...it is standard at the elite level to have them after all. I just think you would also have to do MITF or connecting steps, you would have to do spins, and other elements too (like spirals). But yes, that it would be predefined for everyone (clothing, music, placement of elements etc would all be the same)...I don't see how this contradicts your first paragraph with 'todays basics' in mind (which include jumps)....unless you want basics to mean only edge work.

ETA: i didn't say anything, by the way, about quints...and I dislike that insinuation that I did. I didn't even mention quads. But for men and women, today, triples are standard fair, and some kind of triple combination (I didn't say triple triple) is too.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
emma said:
You know Joe, all I said is that I would miss the SP as it is now because I have seen some truly beautiful ones. I didn't say: :cry: :cry: :cry: and have a temper tantrum and demand that it stay. Actually, what I did was say I agree (more or less) with your idea because today's short program does not 'measure' the basic skill level across a field. Additionally, all i said was that you could have triples...it is standard at the elite level to have them after all. I just think you would also have to do MITF or connecting steps, you would have to do spins, and other elements too (like spirals). But yes, that it would be predefined for everyone (clothing, music, placement of elements etc would all be the same)...I don't see how this contradicts your first paragraph with 'todays basics' in mind (which include jumps)....unless you want basics to mean only edge work.

ETA: i didn't say anything, by the way, about quints...and I dislike that insinuation that I did. I didn't even mention quads. But for men and women, today, triples are standard fair, and some kind of triple combination (I didn't say triple triple) is too.
Emma - I said something about quints...and I never said you did. :sheesh: Because the current set up of the SP is subject to change in the years to come, and I believe quints are on the horizon as well as quads for ladies, and maybe flying Bielmans. :disapp: If you agree that predefined 'tricks' should be for everyone, then the SP has to cut out the options. Everyone is a skater and a serious competitive skater should be able to do a lutz or a flip. No option is necessary. Let the SP planners say this year it will be a triple flip, they could also say this year it will be triple lutz/double loop combo. No problem. But everyone would be required to do those same 'tricks'. (I personally believe doubles would be better. Everyone can do them easily and more important, it would show who has the most flow in and out of them.)

I also think the SP should definitely judge the MIFs (threes, brackets, counters and rockers as to their edges and how well they are used to precede an element.
This would keep the SP well defined equally for everyone and the Free Skate will continue to alllow the skater to do whatever. Otherwise the SP as it is now judged is just a mini LP, imo. too many options which should be in the Free Skate only.

TTCL - Improvs would be wonderful, but I do not think our young skaters are up to that level of performance. What I saw in the Pro comps on Improv was that the skaters were just crossoving and doing tricks. There was no choreography.

Joe
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Several people are offering suggestions, but I don't know that we have a basic agreement on what the suggestions are for.

Is it for the qualifying round at Worlds and Junior Worlds? Those are the only international events that have qualifying rounds, and skaters often don't know until a couple of weeks before the event that they're going to compete (maybe less if they're alternates. So we can't invent a new phase for those two events that will never be used any other time during the season.

Is it for another phase of all senior (and junior?) events, either in addition to the short program or instead of the short program as it now stands? That would make more sense. Decide what it is that you to compare between ALL competitors at that level, whether they're potential world medalists or just barely meeting the entry-level standard for that level, and then design the competition phase to measure those skills.

Is it only for very elite competitors who are likely to make the top 6 or top 12 at Worlds? Or is it for all senior-level competitors, including those who don't make it past the qual rounds at Worlds or who don't place high enough at their own national championships to be sent to Worlds?

I.e., does "low-tech" mean elements that all potential world medalists should be able to complete successfully most of the time? In that case, maybe something like a triple lutz would fit in. But by any reasonable standards, requiring a triple lutz is NOT low-tech, it is in fact quite a high level of technical content.

If your requirements are geared only for the very top-level skaters, then more likely you need to consider something like Worlds as the qualifying event FOR your high-tech compulsory program. Find skaters who have already proven that they have mastered all the triple jumps, and then invite them to learn and compete your compulsory program.

Or does "low-tech" mean elements that all skaters who are qualified to compete at the senior (or junior) level within their own national championships, and maybe get sent to smaller internationals, should be able to complete? If so, I would argue that the current short program requirements of ANY two different triples for seniors and any one triple and designated solo double (or triple) is a better reflection of what should be the minimum expected of all credible senior or junior competitors.

That means you cannot require a triple lutz, or really any specific triple, because it is not necessary to have mastered all the triples to compete at the senior level. (To win at the highest level, yes, but not just to enter a B-level senior event, or the qual rounds at Worlds.)

Keep in mind also that, for example, some skaters can perform triple salchows only from a forward outside three turn entry, and some can perform them only from back outside three-forward inside mohawk entry. Some skaters can perform triple flip only from a three turn, and others only from a mohawk. So if you're putting together a compulsory program in which all of the steps are prechoreographed, some skaters may be very good at one of the jumps included when they use their preferred entry but unable to do it reliably or at all from the entry that you choreographed. Another skater may be a little less strong at that jump in general, but just happened to prefer the entry being used. So the latter skater is more likely to land the jump successfully in your compulsory program, although the former is more likely to land it better in the long program or in a standard short program where skaters can choose their own jump approaches.

Something like an improv competition I think should be a completely separate event. Ditto, perhaps, a rehearsed technical/music interpretation program in which multi-revolution jumps and perhaps extended spins are not allowed, so that the emphasis is on the skating skills and musical expression rather than the tricks (i.e., solo ice dance). Let them have their own competitions with their own qualifying structure, and if they become popular and attract enough talented skaters, who may or may not also compete in the existing disciplines, maybe hold world championships in these disciplines during the same week at the same venue as the existing world championships, but it would primarily be different skaters competing.
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
As a point of reference, many club competitions in the US (I can't speak for other countries) offer "Compulsory Moves" events at the juvenile level and below, similar in purpose to the short programs required at intermediate and above but performed without music, and the results of the compulsory events are not combined with the results of the free program; they're separate events.

This is not a standard program that the USFSA publishes requirements for in the rulebook. Each competition sets their own requirements. Some of them allow more flexibility than others in terms of giving skaters choices of which jumps or which spins to perform. All of them leave it up to the skater (and coach) to choreograph the transitions between the moves.

Let me use Preliminary-level compulsory program requirements from three recent or upcoming competitions as examples of how the difficulty of the required elements compares to what skaters are capable of doing at that level.

The US Preliminary freestyle test requires single jumps up to the flip, and a waltz jump-toe loop combination, forward and backward scratch spins, and a sitspin, for a minimum of 3 revolutions each, and connecting moves and steps of any kind. The Preliminary Moves in the Field requires only forward three turns and some backward mohawks and choctaws, along with forward and backward crossover patterns and forward outside and inside spirals. So those are the MINIMUM skills a skater needs to be capable of to compete at that level.

The standard preliminary freeskating competition allows skaters to perform two different double jumps of their choice. Most commonly the first two doubles a skater learns are salchow and toe loop or salchow and loop. However, if a skater has mastered three or four different doubles, or even five, but for other reasons is not ready to move up to prejuvenile or juvenile level, she (or he) may choose the two hardest doubles in her repertoire to include in the program. Double jumps at the preliminary level are very often cheated, but occasionally you do find skaters who have good athleticism and good technique on these elements right from the start.

So you will see all of the best jumpers at the preliminary level performing two different double jumps, and many of the not-so-good jumpers attempting them as well. You'll see axels and lutzes from almost all the competitors, and combinations or sequences involving double and single jumps. In addition to the very basic spins required on the test, you'll also see camels, laybacks, flying camels, "flying" sits that don't fly very high, proto-Biellmanns, and combination spins. You'll see catch-foot and change-edge spirals, spread eagles and Ina Bauers. You'll sometimes see full-rink step sequences, or at least half-rink sequences or steps leading into single jumps, using the occasional bracket or rocker in addition to the basic turns expected at that level.

However, you won't see all of those more advanced skills from every preliminary-level skater. Chances are, you won't ever see all of those skills from any single individual skater at that level. You certainly won't see three or all five double jumps (except the axel) from the same skater because only two are allowed, but you will see at least three kinds of doubles and possibly four or five from a whole field worth of preliminary skaters, because anyone at that level who can do a double flip or lutz is likely to put it in the program and leave out the easier doubles. Similarly the skaters who can do difficult spins or steps or spirals/field moves will put those in their programs. But anyone who *can* do all five doubles AND full-rink step sequences AND combination and flying spins would probably not be competing at the preliminary level even if they're only 8 years old.

So what are appropriate compulsory moves to require at that level?

Competition 1:
combination jump consisting of 2 single jumps
flip
sitspin (minimum 3 revolutions)
forward spiral (outside or inside)
connecting steps

Competition 2:
lutz
flip-loop combination
sitspin
forward crossovers in a circle (clockwise only)
outside forward spiral on each foot (no steps in between)

Competition 3:
sitspin (min 3 revolutions)
flip jump
forward spiral (outside or inside)
combination jump consisting of 2 single jumps
connecting steps

OK, competitions 1 and 3 have the same elements, they just list them slightly differently.
The only elements in any of these requirements that are not required on the test for this level are the lutz and the single-single jump combination. These jumps are required on the prejuvenile test, so skaters would already need to master them for their next test if they haven't already. But notice that only Competition 2 requires the lutz and requires a specific jump combination with a loop at the end. Skaters have free choice of which singles to use in the combination for Competitions 1 and 3 -- they could go as easy as possible and do toe loop-toe loop, or as hard as possible and do axel-loop, in which case the judges would take into account difficulty of the combination chosen as well as the quality of its execution.

In recognition, however, that not all preliminary skaters at this level can do double jumps or axels, and even fewer can do them cleanly and reliably, and that not all skaters at this level can do camel spins for at least 3 revolutions much less combination or flying spins, these elements are NOT required in the compulsory moves events, where the emphasis is on showing how well skaters perform basic moves, not on showing off their hardest stuff. (Actually I think camel spin would be just as appropriate as lutz to ask at this level since it's on the next test, but not, e.g., flying camel.)

You could take the elements listed for Competition 2, choreograph them into a little program with specific connecting steps appropriate for all preliminary-level skaters, and there you would have your low-tech compulsory program that would allow you to compare quality and execution. Note that the level of difficulty is far below what you would see from the skaters who medal in preliminary freeskating competitions. It's not what you expect of all "elite" preliminary skaters (i.e., the ones who appear most likely to go on to reach the elite levels after another ten years of training) -- it's what you expect of ALL skaters at that level.

At the other end of the spectrum, we do expect all SENIOR level skaters to do camel spins and flying camels, and all the ladies to do some kind of leaning spin (layback or sideways). We don't, however, expect all the skaters to do spread eagles or all the men to do laybacks, so we do not require those moves. Similarly, we don't expect all senior skaters to do triple lutzes, so we don't require those either -- we just require A triple (or two) in the combination, and A triple jump out of steps of the skaters choice.

Save the high-level elements that not everyone can do for the free program where skaters are free to show their hardest stuff. Or for the current short program where skaters at least have the choice of which triple jumps to do (or in the junior jump out of steps, whether to do triple or double and what entry to use), various degrees of latitude on what spin positions to use depending on sex and level, and complete freedom to choreograph steps, spirals, and connecting moves to showcase their own strengths.
 
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emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Ok Joe I see what you are saying and see that we basically agree (as I thought earlier too).

gkelly: I don't have thoughts on the qualifying round at worlds (sr/jr) and wasn't really thinking about that when I posted (but will now)...and, lot's to think about it what you wrote...so, I'm gonna do just that.
 
S

SkateFan4Life

Guest
gkelly said:
If what you're most concerned about is the stress of landing triples and quads in the qual round, a simpler solution would be to have them skate their long programs but not allow triples or quads, so they could do double jumps (or single axels for those who struggle with double axels), and get rewarded for the quality of the double jumps and the rest of the program, which they would probably be able to perform better in those circumstances.

OK, but that's not what I'm proposing. Why change the short and long programs? My recommendation is to introduce a single & double jump program that would give the skaters the opportunity to show that they can actually skate the elements well without the stress of having to land triples and quads. My take on the extra cost of such a program is - the skaters already have numerous costumes from previous seasons, and they have music from previous seasons they know very well. They could use these for the "low-tech" program.

Call me old fashioned, a throwback to the good-old days of figure skating, if you wish, but I would love to see the skaters perform this type of competitive program once again. I well remember the days of Peggy Fleming, who landed "only" double and single jumps - and her programs were well-rounded, competitive, and beautiful to watch. Fleming paid great attention to the details of good line, carriage, flow, and edges. Granted, her many years of skating school figures gave her a sound basis for carriage, edge control, etc., and today's skaters do not have the opportunity to learn these qualities via practicing school figures.

A few posters have written along the lines that this subject comes up every year. Well, what's wrong with that? Aren't we allowed to start threads and open the floor for discussion in this message board?
 
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