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Thread: Torvill/Dean's programs

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    Torvill/Dean's programs

    I have watched numerous programs by Torvill/Dean, and what always amazes me is how they used dance to really express the music. They didn't leave anything behind, every music phrase was perfectly linked to their choreography. I saw this in A/P's Carmina Burana for example(suprise suprise, they choregraphed it), and in some moments of other programs by other skaters(K/P's olympic free as well). But usually today's programs are nothing like T/D's.
    And I ask myself, why? Is it because of the techincal demands of today's ice-dance programs that don't really give room for true choreography?
    I think that it has a lot to do with it. What's your opinion?

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    who knows....

    but people who are big on today's ice dance say T/D are boring so I guess it's all about what you like or who you like

    much like ice dance judging it doesn't really matter who does what so long as you're popular

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    I don't know enough about, nor watch enough, ice dancing to know.....but the T/D programs I've seen, including the very famous Bolero, are just sooooo mesmerizing to me, and interesting...I'm kind of shocked that today's ice dancers would say they are 'boring'...wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anniemg
    I have watched numerous programs by Torvill/Dean, and what always amazes me is how they used dance to really express the music. They didn't leave anything behind, every music phrase was perfectly linked to their choreography. I saw this in A/P's Carmina Burana for example(suprise suprise, they choregraphed it), and in some moments of other programs by other skaters(K/P's olympic free as well). But usually today's programs are nothing like T/D's.
    And I ask myself, why? Is it because of the techincal demands of today's ice-dance programs that don't really give room for true choreography?
    I think that it has a lot to do with it. What's your opinion?
    Torvill and Dean were one of the greatest ice dance teams of all time, and they skated some wonderfully inventive programs, such as "Barnum" and "Bolero". However I was disappointed with their 1994 Olympic long program. To me, this was little more than a "Greatest Hits of T & D" routine, with bits and snippets from previous programs all thrown together in a mish-mash. They barely won the 1994 Europeans with this program, and they rechoreographed it for the Olympics in Lillihammer, but it was too little, too late. I realize that many of their fans went ballistic over the judges' decision that gave them "only" the bronze medal, but to me, that's what they deserved.
    Last edited by SkateFan4Life; 09-04-2005 at 07:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle

    but people who are big on today's ice dance say T/D are boring so I guess it's all about what you like or who you like
    Really? Who is that? Anyone over the age of 12 in ice dance generally admires Torvill & Dean. Quite a few people hated their Olympic free dance in 1994, but their rhumba is revered. Their skating was totally original. Those who find it boring are probably ignorant of dance and ice dance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anniemg
    I have watched numerous programs by Torvill/Dean, and what always amazes me is how they used dance to really express the music. They didn't leave anything behind, every music phrase was perfectly linked to their choreography. I saw this in A/P's Carmina Burana for example(suprise suprise, they choregraphed it), and in some moments of other programs by other skaters(K/P's olympic free as well). But usually today's programs are nothing like T/D's.
    And I ask myself, why? Is it because of the techincal demands of today's ice-dance programs that don't really give room for true choreography?
    I think that it has a lot to do with it. What's your opinion?

    Good topic and good observation. Prior to Torvil and Dean taking the ice dance world by storm - not many people paid much attention to the ice dance discipline. It was watched mostly by those who participate in ice dance and their families of course. Many figure skating fans did not appreciate ice dance in its true form and so tuned out most of the time. It was sort of like watching figure skaters tracing figures - not very exciting to most.

    Torvil and Dean changed all of this with their dramatic programs. They brought ice dance to another level. They looked like Fred and Ginger on ice and made ice dance what it should be.

    I am not sure if there will ever be another Torvil and Dean. They were exceptional in their discipline. Also there have been many changes to ice dance since T&D moved on.

    My biggest gripe with ice dance today is that the dance programs are looking more and more like pairs programs instead of ice dance.

    Bring back Torvil and Dean, please!!!!!!!

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    I didn't love T/D's 1994 free either, but i'm talking about all their other programs. That program was indeed a 'best of', and IMO,it didn't quite have the thought that the other programs had.

    T/D boring? No way! They didn't have the footwork and the difficult lifts(though that's subjective), but I could hardly call them boring. When they were dancing ice-dance was about choreography. Ice-dancing is all about technique nowdays, and you don't really see any choreography. The only program after 1998 that had it all(choreography and technique etc) was Carmina Burana. T/D managed to blend both aspects perfectly.

    it's such a pity to watch this discipline go down......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle
    who knows....

    but people who are big on today's ice dance say T/D are boring so I guess it's all about what you like or who you like
    SOME people would say they were boring because they didn't appear to be suffering, struggling or emotionally void. Some people need a lot of grimacing to
    show the passion of it all. Othere just go for the joy of elegant dancing.

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    SOME people would say they were boring because they didn't appear to be suffering, struggling or emotionally void. Some people need a lot of grimacing to
    show the passion of it all. Othere just go for the joy of elegant dancing.

    Joe
    I think that's a good point. To the other poster who said they didn't have the difficult footwork---they most certainly did, but they made it look deceptively effortless & easy, & didn't hightlight it with wild arms & facial espressions. To me, they skated "quietly". Any skater who knows what they're looking at will tell you they did some of the most difficult footwork out there.

    A former competitive dancer once told me a story of watching them at a practice during a competition--they were just playing around, & skated one of the compusories, in partner position, but without touching each other--with their arms held straight out, & their bodies only 3 or 4 inches apart. To the untrained eye that wouldn't look like any big deal but to another dancer, he understood the control & perfect unison it took to do that. In his words, "I was ready to quit, right there!" And this was a world medalist. He asked them to do it again, & they were like "what's the big deal?"

    I think Ladskater may be right, we may never have another T & D, which is very sad. They were the absolute best.
    Last edited by backspin; 09-06-2005 at 03:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backspin
    we may never have another T & D, which is very sad. They were the absolute best.
    AMEN!

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    [QUOTE=anniemg]I didn't love T/D's 1994 free either, but i'm talking about all their other programs. That program was indeed a 'best of', and IMO,it didn't quite have the thought that the other programs had.

    I seem to remember they changed that program a great deal before the Olympics. Didn't their program go over very badly at the Europeans just before the Olys, and force many changes in their program -- resulting in that "best of" string of trademark moves? I wish I'd seen the original, Euros version, before they changed it. Anybody have a tape and be willing to comment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pollyls
    I seem to remember they changed that program a great deal before the Olympics. Didn't their program go over very badly at the Europeans just before the Olys, and force many changes in their program -- resulting in that "best of" string of trademark moves? I wish I'd seen the original, Euros version, before they changed it. Anybody have a tape and be willing to comment?
    Got that on tape (and as computer video clip). But frankly - I don't think it brings something new in rehashing this issue for the 101st time... So just in short form: They got the impression that the ISU wanted to bring plain dancing back, no stories, no show effects and made a routine to follow those principles. Which the judges did not like at Euros. So within 4 weeks they rechoreographed big parts of the routine while there was no time to create a whole new concept and music. Which was much more crowd pleasing but still not what the judges wanted. But some still debate whether the judges ever intended to give them gold. And my big problem is this critisizing that they reused moves. Every dance couple reuses moves they are known for in about every routine. When T&D do this cause they are in a hurry to recreate the routine, everyone bashes them for something all the others do all the time... I don't get that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backspin
    A former competitive dancer once told me a story of watching them at a practice during a competition--they were just playing around, & skated one of the compusories, in partner position, but without touching each other--with their arms held straight out, but 3 or 4 inches apart. To the untrained eye that wouldn't look like any big deal but to another dancer, he understood the control & perfect unison it took to do that. In his words, "I was ready to quit, right there!" And this was a world medalist. He asked them to do it again, & they were like "what's the big deal?"
    May I ask who this was? Just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdnuva
    Got that on tape (and as computer video clip). But frankly - I don't think it brings something new in rehashing this issue for the 101st time... So just in short form: They got the impression that the ISU wanted to bring plain dancing back, no stories, no show effects and made a routine to follow those principles. Which the judges did not like at Euros. So within 4 weeks they rechoreographed big parts of the routine while there was no time to create a whole new concept and music. Which was much more crowd pleasing but still not what the judges wanted. But some still debate whether the judges ever intended to give them gold. And my big problem is this critisizing that they reused moves. Every dance couple reuses moves they are known for in about every routine. When T&D do this cause they are in a hurry to recreate the routine, everyone bashes them for something all the others do all the time... I don't get that.
    Thanks for the recap. I agree that they're hardly the first or the last team to use signature moves. Plenty of teams come to mind! I remember hearing commentators at the time claim they did too many lifts, but I don't think the judges were prepared to give them gold, no matter what they did.

    Their rhumba that year was so wonderful, though. I remember bouncing up and down and telling the TV and the assembled watchers, "See there, that's how this is DONE..."

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    T&D are the reason I started following ice dance. Since then, Russian drama has taken over again. I too am tired of the grimacing.

    T&D mesmerize me because the purity of their style. I feel their expression is through their entire bodies. I've said it before...Encounters is my favorite routine of theirs. I only saw it once on the World Pro Championships. They won even though the piece was over the time limit. There was a hush in the crowd.

    I remember there was the question about the legality of a flip that Jayne took over Dean's head during their 94 Oly routine. Technically, the woman's body is not allowed to be lifted entirely over the man's head. However, their sense was that Jayne was not assisted over his head and therefore, it was not a lift and therefore not illegal.

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