Torvill/Dean's programs

Vash01 · Sep 12, 2005

Pixie Cut said:
Really? Who is that? Anyone over the age of 12 in ice dance generally admires Torvill & Dean. Quite a few people hated their Olympic free dance in 1994, but their rhumba is revered. Their skating was totally original. Those who find it boring are probably ignorant of dance and ice dance.

That's a very bold statement that ignores that people have different tastes.

I loved 'Bolero' but I have not been thrilled with many of their later numbers. I can count on the fingers of one hand the T&D programs I really liked ( 94 Rhumba and 'Take five' being two of them, besides Bolero, and I am having difficulty coming up with a fourth one). BTW, I am over 12 years old. :laugh:

I disagree with your assessment that I am ignorant of dance and ice dance. T&D are essentially performers, particularly as pros (IMO the best ice dancers were Klimova-Ponomarenko but I won't expect everyone to like every program of theirs because I don't). T&D may be able to sell the programs to many but it does not mean everyone must love every program of theirs.

Vash

gkelly · Sep 12, 2005

Joesitz said:
With due respect to Dean, I think we should give a nod to Bob Fosse for making a thing out of wearing a hat.

Joe

And Michael Bennett. And, probably, Fred Astaire and others of that era.

SkateFan4Life · Sep 12, 2005

I saw Torvill and Dean in an Ice Capades show that was presented just prior to the 1988 Winter Olympics in Calgary. The program had the theme of a chess game, and as the music initially started, Jayne and Chris sat at the rinkside, "playing chess". They then skated around a number of large chess figures, with a number of inventive moves. I can't remember their music, but it suited the program beautifully. They looked absolutely stunning. :clap:

JonnyCoop · Sep 12, 2005

There may be a bit of excessive reverence in regard to T & D (in the eyes of many, they can do no wrong whatsoever; to some of these people, even huge mistakes by them would be considered a new level of technical brilliance) -- however, a certain amount of what is responsible for the sacred position that they hold in Dance is that they showed numerous possibilities of what Ice Dance could BE. For those of us who still remember many of the free dances before about 1981 (polka variations, stuff that wasn't much more interesting than the compolsury dances, etc, etc), we will be eternally grateful to T & D for showing an entirely new approach.

SkateFan4Life · Sep 12, 2005

JonnyCoop said:
There may be a bit of excessive reverence in regard to T & D (in the eyes of many, they can do no wrong whatsoever; to some of these people, even huge mistakes by them would be considered a new level of technical brilliance) -- however, a certain amount of what is responsible for the sacred position that they hold in Dance is that they showed numerous possibilities of what Ice Dance could BE. For those of us who still remember many of the free dances before about 1981 (polka variations, stuff that wasn't much more interesting than the compolsury dances, etc, etc), we will be eternally grateful to T & D for showing an entirely new approach.

Amen! :agree: Do you remember how BORING the 1980 Olympic gold medal program that was skated by Soviets Natalia Linichuk and Gennadi Karponosov? In my view, it presented a golden opportunity to raid the refrigerator. Torvill and Dean finished fifth at Lake Placid, and they blazed the way to innovative programs, starting with the next season.

Vash01 · Sep 13, 2005

thisthingcalledlove said:
I remember my coach saying that before Torvill and Dean, dance was called, "Bad theatre on ice." I agree. A lot of the dancers use only their face to express the music, rather than their feet. Sometimes, when watching some teams, I feel like it's an Ex-Lax commercial. They look so constipated.

Torvill and Dean, like some ballet choreographer whose name escapes me now revolutionized ice dance in that they brought expression through their bodies, rather than their faces. Of course, all the Oly champs after T/D, rather than learning from that great team, have become teams of the Ex-Lax school of ice dance.

While no team, in my opinion, has come close to their technical excellence (people who think that the new teams have surpassed them, I think, are terribly wrong; ice dance may have new tricks, but no one has changed dance for the better like T/D did), some teams, like Punsalan/Swallow, the Germans, the Bulgarians, and sometimes, A/P, have tried to express dance through their bodies, rather than just their faces.

I wish we could put a bag over the ice dancers' heads while they skate, and see who really expresses the music.

I disagree with your coach. Pakhomova & Gorshkov (1976 Olympic champions) were a wonderful ice dance team that skated well before T&D's times and earned respect for the discipline (they were the first OGMs in ice dancing).

I strongly disagree with you that no team has come close to their technical excellence. Klimova-Ponomarenko were the best in technical excellence. Watch their bodies, edges, turns for technique. Betemianova-Bukin (as amateur), Usova-Zhulin were also outstanding, and Grishchuk-Platov did extremely difficult things that involved skating skills on ice. Why not try putting bags over T&D's faces? They too used their facial expressions a lot and some of their pro programs were just 'cheap' meant to create cheap jokes. T&D were great skaters as amateurs but as pros (and in 1994 Olympics) I have mixed feelings about them.

This hero worship is way over the top. There is no need to put down other talented skaters/dancers to praise T&D.

Vash

Vash01 · Sep 13, 2005

Spirit said:
One of the best programs I ever saw -- of any kind -- was T&D at a professional competition (probably the 1995 World Team Championships). It brought a smile to my face and to the crowd's faces. The opposing teams stood up and cheered when it was over, grinning all the way. The program was Cecilia.

It started with Jayne standing on the ice looking glamorous, and Christopher looking like a nerd, complete with taped glasses. Before the music started, Christopher, too shy to look directly at Jayne, quietly edged toward her, looking awkward. Jayne kept edging away, giving him leery looks. Finally Christopher came right up to her side and awkwardly put his arm around her, looking as geeky as ever. Jayne frowned at the hand on her shoulder and then gave a deadpan look to the audience, which died laughing.

Then that fast drumbeat of Simon & Garfunkel started up, and the show just got better from there. Christopher did some kind of move where he slapped his own forehead in amazement, and the slap caused his entire body to spin all the way around (upside-down and back again) while on one leg. I don't quite know how he did that; I was having too much fun to watch closely.

Boring?

Not these two.

I disliked 'Cecilia' program. Red hat was no better. There was one program that I don't remember the title of. Jayne was an older lady and Chris looked like a trouble maker. They used a stick in their routine and it was considered 'funny'. I found it cheap. Quite often T&D got away with not so good programs only because of 'Bolero'. I did like some of their programs, and overall they were just a very good ice dance team that once had one of the greatest performances ever. At times they were given higher marks simply for being Torville & Dean- a bit like some of Brian Boitano's wins as a pro.

Vash

tdnuva · Sep 13, 2005

Vash01 said:
There was one program that I don't remember the title of. Jayne was an older lady and Chris looked like a trouble maker. They used a stick in their routine and it was considered 'funny'.

Could you tell a bit more about that? I don't recall a routine with a stick at all.....

Vash01 said:
There is no need to put down other talented skaters/dancers to praise T&D.

..is an interesting sentence when I read your T&D bashing btw. That you found some of their programs "cheap" is no nice description either - and btw neither something "factual". K&P had nice edges. But T&D had, too. My opinion, yes, but I am not alone in that

And my only (!!!!) problem with K&P is that they usually mainly excelled in programs of one style. The rather dramatic type. They did that wonderfully - but I like more versatility. Just a matter of taste I'd say.

gkelly · Sep 13, 2005

tdnuva said:
And my only (!!!!) problem with K&P is that they usually mainly excelled in programs of one style. The rather dramatic type. They did that wonderfully - but I like more versatility. Just a matter of taste I'd say.

They did pretty well with some more lighthearted numbers as well -- the Charleston and Threepenny Opera FD in 1989, My Fair Lady FD in 1990, polka OD in 1992. And the clown march they did as pros. And of course the waltz OSP from 1987 that became the Golden Waltz.

Some of their earlier amateur work, e.g., the Beatles FD from 1988, was lightweight without the sense of fun they had elsewhere, so it just bored me, and of the top three couples in 1991 their OD had the weakest feel for the Blues. But they were certainly capable of more than just "dramatic." And even if you call both their 91 and 92 FDs dramatic, one was avant-garde and one was classically sensual, not exactly similar to each other.

tdnuva · Sep 13, 2005

gkelly said:
They did pretty well with some more lighthearted numbers as well -- the Charleston and Threepenny Opera FD in 1989, My Fair Lady FD in 1990, polka OD in 1992. And the clown march they did as pros. And of course the waltz OSP from 1987 that became the Golden Waltz.

Some of their earlier amateur work, e.g., the Beatles FD from 1988, was lightweight without the sense of fun they had elsewhere, so it just bored me, and of the top three couples in 1991 their OD had the weakest feel for the Blues. But they were certainly capable of more than just "dramatic." And even if you call both their 91 and 92 FDs dramatic, one was avant-garde and one was classically sensual, not exactly similar to each other.

Sigh. I did NOT say that they never did anything besides dramatic. Only - most of the other routines which were not dramatic kind of left me cold. As I said, matter of taste.

icenut84 · Sep 15, 2005

Re: Jayne's expression - I don't see why she would be thought to not have good expression, as one poster said. Obviously everyone has their preferences, but I just don't really see this criticism. You don't have to make an O face to express something, whether it's an emotion, a story, a theme or whatever. I think it's something evident in Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze too - they don't have over the top facial expressions, but they express the music with their bodies, which I personally think is much more desirable and a better quality, and comes across to the audience. Jayne doesn't go over the top, but she isn't expressionless either - the balance is right. JMO.

I found a few pics to illustrate my point (and to illustrate this thread a bit for everyone else

):

Oscar Tango

Encounter

Missing

Hat Trick

Summertime

Bridge Over Troubled Water

Strangers in the Night

Still Crazy After All These Years

Bolero

Bolero 2

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 15, 2005

Thanks for those pics, Icenut. T&D were special not just with me but with anyone who sees certain skaters as special.

Some posters can't get beyond one's idea of passion and we have to put up with that.

Joe

Eeyora · Sep 15, 2005

The first time I saw Torvil and Dean's Bolero was at the 1993 Skates of Gold. I was nine. I had to watch it again and again on tape. It still never gets old. I discover something new everytime.

Vash01 · Sep 16, 2005

tdnuva said:
Could you tell a bit more about that? I don't recall a routine with a stick at all.....

..is an interesting sentence when I read your T&D bashing btw. That you found some of their programs "cheap" is no nice description either - and btw neither something "factual". K&P had nice edges. But T&D had, too. My opinion, yes, but I am not alone in that

And my only (!!!!) problem with K&P is that they usually mainly excelled in programs of one style. The rather dramatic type. They did that wonderfully - but I like more versatility. Just a matter of taste I'd say.

It was not T&D bashing at all. I wrote which programs I liked and which ones I did not like. I did not like ALL of K&P's programs either but the thread is about T&D so I did not bring those in. The reference to K&P was about technical superiority and I had to bring it in response to the statement that no other dance team came even close to T&D in technical ability.

It is hard to find skaters whose programs are 100% likable. B&S come close in that respect but still not 100%. I am sure there are people out there that cannot stand B&S, and that is their taste. You seem to worship T&D so much that you cannot stand differences of opinions. All I am doing is expressing my opinion.

tdnuva · Sep 16, 2005

Vash01 said:
You seem to worship T&D so much that you cannot stand differences of opinions. All I am doing is expressing my opinion.

What?? I clearly stated, it's a matter of taste. T&D skate just as I like it. For you this might be K&P, so be it. And I have no problem with that whatsoever. Please read a bit more carefully.

And then I asked you about a bit more details of this "stick" routine cause I still can't remember any routine involving a stick. And I did quite some research on T&D. Maybe you are mixing something up?

MissJanet · Sep 16, 2005

Personal taste is just that. For me, T&D are simply the best icedancers I ever saw. I like their british understatement when it comes to facial expressions, their undramatic pace and the fact that everything looks easy, no matter how technically complex they get. Newer pairs can do more? Sure, that is the way sport goes. But T&D gave icedancing glamour and from their influence and importance, the icedancing today owes them alot.

Torvill/Dean's programs

Vash01

gkelly

SkateFan4Life

Guest

JonnyCoop

SkateFan4Life

Guest

Vash01

Vash01

tdnuva

gkelly

tdnuva

icenut84

Joesitz (RIP)

Eeyora

Vash01

tdnuva

MissJanet

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