Final Lineup Confirmed for Campbell's Classic

attyfan · Sep 25, 2005

Joesitz said:
I am anxious to see if Speedy gets as angry with the two Russian top skaters as he was with La Kwan and Diva Cohen for skipping the GPs last year. (He is very buddy buddy with Piseev, I have read.)

Joe

IIRC, the letter threatening sanctions came immediately after Plushy withdrew from his events -- and was surprisingly late, if directed at the Americans. He can't get too angry with Plushy; this year, since Plush had to withdraw from worlds, he is no longer a seeded skater, and the rules of the GP don't apply to him. Anyway, I think $peedy hates both Sasha and Michelle because they upset his power over the skaters -- especially the Americans.. Once upon a time, the "good things" (endorsements, etc.) only went to the OGM -- which would not go to anyone who told the ISU to f*** off. Both Michelle and Sasha have illustrated how to get endorsements without the ISU's blessing (i.e., the OGM) but by force of personality/character.

Mathman · Sep 26, 2005

soogar said:
Then Miki's chances have just gotten better.

Sorry, Soogar, I got caught in professor mode again. What was going on in my mind was something like this: If I say, "I think Michelle will win Campbell's," or "I predict that Michelle will win," or "I hope that Michlle will win," these are true statements. I do think and hope and predict these things.

But if I say, "Michelle will win Campbell's," (note that Michelle is now the subject of the sentence, rather than "I,") I am making a statement whose truth or falsity I cannot know. So that is nonsense.

Oh, never mind. Go Emily! Go Miki!

MM

Mathman · Sep 26, 2005

attyfan said:
Anyway, I think $peedy hates both Sasha and Michelle because they upset his power over the skaters -- especially the Americans.. Once upon a time, the "good things" (endorsements, etc.) only went to the OGM -- which would not go to anyone who told the ISU to f*** off. Both Michelle and Sasha have illustrated how to get endorsements without the ISU's blessing (i.e., the OGM) but by force of personality/character.

Oh, gosh, I can't believe that Cinquanta hates Michelle and Sasha. But he might be frustrated at the decreased revenue. Less for the ISU, while the likes of Michelle, Sasha, Irina and Evgeni are doing fine on their own.

MM

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 26, 2005

One has to remember when there is a vote in the ISU, Piseev has the power to have the results in his favor. He controls so many voters from inside the Russian borders, and then some from outside the borders.

Piseev does not want to have the judges' names known.

Joe

NorthernLite · Sep 26, 2005

Originally Posted by soogar
I think Joannie is a huge joke. She'll be lucky if she places top 10 at the Olympics.

Originally Posted by Mathman:
I don't think I would call tenth place at the Olympics a joke. Do you expect that Emily Hughes will do that well?

soogar, are you the person who said recently that while watching old vids you suddenly had a greater appreciation for Sarah Hughes? You should just pay more attention to who *my* favorites are, because I saw all the good qualities in Sarah's skating way back in early 99. And who's one of my faves now - Joannie.

OTOH How JR or Emily (or anyone else) would place at the OOOOOs has nothing to do with how good they are, or how well they skate on the day. The opportunity for biased judging/outright cheating has increased enormously with the new system. (It still boggles the mind that in Salt Lake two judges PUT SARAH OFF THE PODIUM after the FS. Think what they can do with such an arbitrary and anonymous system as the NJS.)

---
MM, Your original post re: a cheesefest "season" as an alternate to the GP is interesting. I could see skaters and their Feds wanting to go with Cheesefests. They're easier on the skaters in a way. And it would offer a means to buck the ISU's requirements, while making some $$ and getting some experience. Of course, then Speedy would just arbitrarily change the rules again to prevent all cheesefests.

(BTW as the ISU, with its stoopid CoP has altered the nature of the SP/FS, they might as well eliminate the SP in all events anyway. Not that they will. But no pro-CoP official is acknowledging that the "free" skate has merely become a longer technical program, or that so far after the SP, the first-place competitor is more often too far ahead to catch in the free.)

---
BTW as of a couple weeks ago, I was led to believe there would not be a December cheesefest - or at least, it's not going to be in MI again.

janetb · Sep 26, 2005

soogar said:
I think Joannie is a huge joke. She'll be lucky if she places top 10 at the Olympics. I don't read a lot in the USFS giving her an invite b/c a) she's in Canada which makes the event convenient for her to attend and b) Irina declined.

I guess is was a joke at cup of chine where she placed ahead of Miki Ando and Angela Nikodinov.

And at Trophee Eric Bompard where she took gold ahead of Carolina Kostner, Julia Sebestyen and Fumie Suguri

Oh yes and at the grand prix final where she placed third ahead of Miki Ando, Yoshie Onda And Cynthia Phaneuf. And she placed 2nd in the long program ahead of Shizuka Arakawa.

What was a huge joke a worlds last year was Elena Sokolova and Miki Ando getting better PCS marks in the Short than Joannie

By the way Emily Hughs personal best is 147.89 while Joannie's is 168.72 which is over 20 points higher.

Isn't it amazing how you can totally forget all of the competitions last year except for worlds. Joannie had one bad program long program all of last year unfortunately that was at Worlds I hope she does much better this year.

vixen62025 · Sep 26, 2005

janetb said:
I
What was a huge joke a worlds last year was Elena Sokolova and Miki Ando getting better PCS marks in the Short than Joannie

And there were many other PCS oddities at Worlds, which should give no one a good feeling going into Torino.

soogar · Sep 26, 2005

janetb said:
By the way Emily Hughs personal best is 147.89 while Joannie's is 168.72 which is over 20 points higher.

QUOTE]

Emily's personal best was a junior program which is shorter than a senior LP. Also Emily's LP for this year is seriously smoking.

I look at how skaters do at Worlds b/c at Worlds Joannie was going in with all the expectations of Team Canada (as a sidenote, on FSU there's some speculation that Cynthia Phaneuf has quit skating and someone stated that Cynthia hasn't been practicing that much and it's a wait and see approach with her coaches) and she didn't do well at all. Considering all the pressure Canada is placing on Jeff Buttle, I would think that there's similar pressure for Joannie and she does not skate well under pressure.

As for prior competitions, I really don't consider early season comps to be a good indicator of where the skater will place at Olympics/Worlds. Joannie did well in the GP because most of the skaters she was competing against didn't bring their A game. At Worlds she was fairly placed in the SP against other clean skaters.

mzheng · Sep 26, 2005

attyfan said:
IIRC, the letter threatening sanctions came immediately after Plushy withdrew from his events -- and was surprisingly late, if directed at the Americans. He can't get too angry with Plushy; this year, since Plush had to withdraw from worlds, he is no longer a seeded skater, and the rules of the GP don't apply to him. Anyway, I think $peedy hates both Sasha and Michelle because they upset his power over the skaters -- especially the Americans.. Once upon a time, the "good things" (endorsements, etc.) only went to the OGM -- which would not go to anyone who told the ISU to f*** off. Both Michelle and Sasha have illustrated how to get endorsements without the ISU's blessing (i.e., the OGM) but by force of personality/character.

Well, I don't think $peedy hate MK and SC that much. As you said the letter came after Plushy withdrew from his GP event, while planning to skated in a show in the same night as the GP event. That's what directly cause the sanction letter. Plushy pushed the 'edge' too much to the extend of 'abusing' the rule.....And $peedy was not happy that Plushy late withdrawn from worlds' LP, and said some hash words towards Plushy......Kwan had sit out the GP for couple of seasons, never caused the sanction letter......$peedy know better how to 'court' the USFSA. After all, more than half ISU funding came directly from US's tv contract, even it is dramatically reduced compare their last contract. But still 50%+ means a lot come from just one country. Remember the total contribution from the rest of world construct less than 50%.

Yes. I agree what said about SC and MK, they don't need OGM to secure their endorsements -- which probably comparable to what an Foreign OGM would've get. Although with it they might get even more.

vixen62025 · Sep 26, 2005

soogar said:
At Worlds she was fairly placed in the SP against other clean skaters.

So what does it say to you that someone who didn't skate remotely clean still won the SP and lead the way with 2/3 of the top PCS scores? How can you possibly believe this same coterie will give Emily Hughes (whose sister won the OGM in SLC over their cries of 'foul') a medal in Turin?

soogar · Sep 26, 2005

vixen62025 said:
So what does it say to you that someone who didn't skate remotely clean still won the SP and lead the way with 2/3 of the top PCS scores? How can you possibly believe this same coterie will give Emily Hughes (whose sister won the OGM in SLC over their cries of 'foul') a medal in Turin?

I don't think the coterie will *give* Emily anything. I do think that Emily skating for the US will have an advantage (like her sister) in terms of not getting buried in the pack with a clean SP. However my belief is that Emily will get an opportunity and seize it like her sister just based on what I've seen of her mental toughness.

As for Irina, I believe that with Worlds in Russia and the personal story of Irina helped prop her up in the judges' eyes there. This year the story is old news and she won't be receiving the benefit of the doubt (esp at the Olympics).

In terms of cheesefest: the old guard will win (either Michelle or Sasha).

For the Olympics, there will be a changing of the guard. Here is my final pick for the ladies' podium (not in any particular order): Carolina, Miki and Emily. If Emily doesn't go, then possibly Irina. I think of last year's worlds similar to 1997 Worlds for men. Todd was widely regarded as the second skater (could have won gold if not for a mistake in the LP) and Elvis as the top skater. In 1998, in the judges' eyes, Todd dropped to third with no mistakes and Elvis was regarded as the 2nd skater behind Kulik. I think that 2006 will be the same deal in both mens and ladies. You will see new blood on both podiums.

janetb · Sep 26, 2005

soogar said:
Emily's personal best was a junior program which is shorter than a senior LP. Also Emily's LP for this year is seriously smoking.

I look at how skaters do at Worlds b/c at Worlds Joannie was going in with all the expectations of Team Canada (as a sidenote, on FSU there's some speculation that Cynthia Phaneuf has quit skating and someone stated that Cynthia hasn't been practicing that much and it's a wait and see approach with her coaches) and she didn't do well at all. Considering all the pressure Canada is placing on Jeff Buttle, I would think that there's similar pressure for Joannie and she does not skate well under pressure.

As for prior competitions, I really don't consider early season comps to be a good indicator of where the skater will place at Olympics/Worlds. Joannie did well in the GP because most of the skaters she was competing against didn't bring their A game. At Worlds she was fairly placed in the SP against other clean skaters.

1) The only difference between a junior and senior program is the addition of one spin and that supposed to make up 20+ points

2) Your judging Emily's chances on summer competitions but I'm not supposed to look at all of Joannies results from the whole year.

3) Both Elena Sokolova and Miki Ando should have much lower PCS marks than Joannie, if you just look at skating skills. Joannioe is second only to Carolina Kostner in speed, she has great edges and posture. While both Elena Sokolova and Miki Ando look a little like semi trucks in comparison

R.D. · Sep 26, 2005

For the Olympics, there will be a changing of the guard. Here is my final pick for the ladies' podium (not in any particular order): Carolina, Miki and Emily

I can see Carolina and/or Miki on the Olympic podium but Emily Hughes? I realize anything can happen, but I think that's a bit of a stretch to say she'll be top three in the world so soon...has she even had an international senior comp yet?

soogar · Sep 26, 2005

Red Dog said:
I can see Carolina and/or Miki on the Olympic podium but Emily Hughes? I realize anything can happen, but I think that's a bit of a stretch to say she'll be top three in the world so soon...has she even had an international senior comp yet?

If I get this entire podium pick right, I'm going to have a thread entitled PROPS TO SOOGAR after the Olympics.
:biggrin:

It would be like Carol Heiss calling Peggy's OGM when Peggy was 15 years old and in her first worlds.

I don't really care for Joannie's skating. I think she is the one who looks like a Mack truck/soccer player on ice and not Miki or Sokolova. Emily is considerably more skilled in edges, spins and spirals than Joannie and while her jumps are inconsistent (more due to her size and power than anything), I believe that Emily can will those jumps to work for her in the heat of the moment, while I don't believe that Joannie has that same ability.

R.D. · Sep 26, 2005

If I get this entire podium pick right, I'm going to have a thread entitled PROPS TO SOOGAR after the Olympics.

Perhaps, but you have to get the order right as well. :biggrin:

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 26, 2005

vixen62025 said:
And there were many other PCS oddities at Worlds, which should give no one a good feeling going into Torino.

I still contend that in order to get high PCS scores a skater must get high Tech scores. There is a corelation between the two. If you've seen competitions LIVE, it is easy to note that the next to last six to skate do not have their deserved PCS scores because they do not have the high Technical.

I would definitely like to see a separate panel for the PCS scores. It is the most subjective portion of the scoring and we can argue plenty instead of just saying things like.... well, she did a 3x3x3 clean. And the poor posture throughout has to be overlooked as well as the lack of musicality.

BTW. Everyone's entitled to their opinions but predicting any competition this season without seeing anyone skate since the last time is, for me, kind of presumptuous. All I can predict is that there will be surprises and especially in the last six to skate in the Olys.

Joe

gezando · Sep 26, 2005

mzheng said:
Yes. I agree what said about SC and MK, they don't need OGM to secure their endorsements -- which probably comparable to what an Foreign OGM would've get. Although with it they might get even more.

If a Japanese lady skater wins the OGM, wanna to bet this "foreign" OGM may receive in endorsement??

attyfan · Sep 26, 2005

gezando said:
If a Japanese lady skater wins the OGM, wanna to bet this "foreign" OGM may receive in endorsement??

They may, in Japan; as I understand, the "big three" of Japanese skating (Ando, Arakawa, and Suguri) have already been in an candy commercial.

mzheng · Sep 26, 2005

gezando said:
If a Japanese lady skater wins the OGM, wanna to bet this "foreign" OGM may receive in endorsement??

I'm talking about the endorsements in $$.....$ basis. Which contribute to more than 50%+ of ISU's funding. Sure Japanese may get whatever endorsements in Japan market. Or may be some of Asian markets too (though I doubt they'll get much endorsments in China Market, now one of the bigest world market, the general population in china are very anti Japanese recently. You have to be very careful where you park your car if it is Japanese brand) .....But I doubt the amount will be close to what top US skaters would get from US market.

gezando · Sep 26, 2005

mzheng said:
I'm talking about the endorsements in $$.....$ basis. Which contribute to more than 50%+ of ISU's funding. Sure Japanese may get whatever endorsements in Japan market. Or may be some of Asian markets too....though I doubt the amount will be close to what top US skaters would get from US market.

Japan is the world second largest economy, they do not have an OGM yet, I bet if one of their ladies win the OGM, it will be bigger than what a top USA lady skater will receive. OTOH, a OGM, like Kristi did not really receive that much endorsement.

Final Lineup Confirmed for Campbell's Classic

attyfan

Custom Title

Mathman

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

NorthernLite

janetb

vixen62025

soogar

mzheng

vixen62025

soogar

janetb

R.D.

soogar

R.D.

Joesitz (RIP)

gezando

attyfan

Custom Title

mzheng

gezando

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