2005 Nationals on ESPN last evening - Sasha Cohen's long program

Piel · Sep 29, 2005

Uber Kwan fan that I am, :biggrin:

I don't think I want to be that much of a fan of any skater again. I am getting too old for so much drama, LOL. WVU football is about all of the exitement and heart break that I can stand these days. I would like to to know more about the figure skating in order to appreciate more skaters and diciplines. Before Kwan I was a Kerrigan fan. With both of them it was not their actual skating that sucked me in at first but more the human interest stories that came along with them. Red Dog you may be on to something....non-fan may be the way to go. My blood pressure thanks you :agree: .

R.D. · Sep 29, 2005

Yeah- "non-fan" doesn't mean you hate everybody. "non-fan" just simply means that you may or may not enjoy watching skating (in my case I like the excitement that comes with major comps) and no one skater particularly moves you or stands out to you. Why this concept is so difficult for certain fans to comprehend, I'll never know. But I know I'm not the only "non-fan" around here :biggrin:

. So it's not a bad thing. If you feel your like for kwan is fading, come on over! :laugh:

BTW- being a non-fan isn't without it's "gotchas" either. Besides being called a fan of any skater you may talk about for 30 seconds, or dedicate a couple of online posts to, I know I still feel it during competitions. Now, I don't get myself sick like a uber-Kwan or uber-Cohen fan might but I definitely feel the adrenaline because I'm eager to know the results, and see how everyone skates. (It's a great feeling though. It's not a "worry" feeling but just an anxious feeling.)

anniemg · Sep 29, 2005

If it counts, i'm a non fan for pairs and dance! I like some skaters more than the others, but i'm not a real fan. I'm rooting for Sasha and Lambiel most!

gezando · Sep 29, 2005

rjulie510 said:
I believe he was mainly pointing out that Pas de Deux is Dance for Two that it is better suited for pairs rather than singles skaters. Wasn't there gossip that Marina Zueva, the choreographer, initially tried to talk Sasha out of it?

I think choreographers has traditionally let 2 people dance to this piece. But IMO, there is nothing about this piece of music that screams out for pair or 2 people. ( I mean there is no, look here is a hocket, and we don't have a soprano line and a tenor line doing an imitative polyphony ) Since it is always advocated here at GS that skaters are not acting the story of a ballet or opera, they should just skate to the essence of the music, and IMO the essence of pas de deux is just a piece of superficially pretty with no particular depth kind of music. I don't see why skating single is more difficult than skating paris. Many may say, pas de deux has been made famous by many ballet dancers and skaters, but Cohen took the risk by choosing this piece. So far her performance of this piece at best is skin deep superficially prettiness, but IMO that has nothing to do with skating single to this piece.

As far as pas de deux being a sensual piece of music, JMO, it is not really that sensual, it is melodic and tuneful , easy to the judges ears. Romeo and Juliet overture is a lot more sensual in an intense hormonal way

Just listen to the sighing theme leading to the hormonal love theme. Robert Greenberg even used the O word for R and J's love theme.

gezando · Sep 29, 2005

Red Dog said:
if this statement actually held water, skating forums wouldn't exist

You just made my point. I was responding to kyla's

" For her (Cohen) critics all I can say is you can skate like her in your dreams if your lucky."

I know someone dream can be another's nightmare.

.

..but come on. The fact that this is even an issue is laughable. look- only about 5 people can skate like Cohen or Kwan, and they sure as hell don't post here
.

You just made my point again

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 29, 2005

gezando said:
As far as pas de deux being a sensual piece of music, JMO, it is not really that sensual, it is melodic and tuneful , easy to the judges ears. Romeo and Juliet overture is a lot more sensual in an intense hormonal way Just listen to the sighing theme leading to the hormonal love theme. Robert Greenberg even used the O word for R and J's love theme.

By sensual, I meant that the ballerina was finding the consort interesting, lol.

PIT's 3 children's ballets were not his favorite compositions I am sure Petipa hounded him for various types of tempos which he obliged reluctantly. He needed the money. But the 4th act of Swan Lake PIT went all out on making it a symphony.

Prokofiev's R&J balcony scene, very lyrical and very sensuous. Has anyone ever tried that? I would not want to see that as a single. It is a pas de deux.

I believe Sasha likes pretty melodies or spanish rythyms to skate to. So be it.

Joe

gezando · Sep 29, 2005

Joesitz said:
By sensual, I meant that the ballerina was finding the consort interesting, lol.

Nice to know let us know what you meant

PIT's 3 children's ballets were not his favorite compositions I am sure Petipa hounded him for various types of tempos which he obliged reluctantly. He needed the money. But the 4th act of Swan Lake PIT went all out on making it a symphony.

He needed the money. I am kind of tired of PIT's music, the 3 ballets are top of my ignore list, for now I believe you that SL act four has nice orchestration, although I watched SL earlier this year, and there is nothing about SL act four that jumps out. So far my take on the problem with PIT's music in general is that he was exceedingly good with tunes, but everything else was just dutiful.

Prokofiev's R and J ..... not want to see that as a single. It is a pas de deux.

I wanna to see if a single skater or dancer try to handle Le Sacre, no matter how many dancers the original choreographer staged

I believe Sasha likes pretty melodies or spanish rythyms to skate to. So be it.

Joe

Pretty melodies in the most superifical skin deep way. Cohen is also skating to DE for the fourth time, Russian equivalent to row row row your boat. Maybe her (relatively lack of) music interpretative skill only allows her to do these pieces.

kyla2 · Sep 29, 2005

Oh For Goodness Sakes......

Red Dog and Gezando, you two are hilarious. Gezando, as always, you miss my point. Look, whether you like Sasha or not, take a real close look at what she does on the ice when she is in her zone (maybe not "perfect" zone). She is magnificent. So is Michelle when she is in her zone. They are untouchable. One transports you emotionally and commands the ice unlike any other skater who has ever skated, and the other has a balletic style that is breathtaking and completely unique in the history of figure skating. I respect them both tremendously and I am very grateful that I have lived long enough to see them. I am also grateful that I have seen a sick Irina skate her heart out and perform at a technical level that hasn't been seen in a long time in women's skating. I could go on, but I won't bore you all because I have nothing bad to say about any of them right now.

R.D. · Sep 30, 2005

Look, whether you like Sasha or not, take a real close look at what she does on the ice when she is in her zone (maybe not "perfect" zone). She is magnificent. So is Michelle when she is in her zone. They are untouchable. One transports you emotionally and commands the ice unlike any other skater who has ever skated, and the other has a balletic style that is breathtaking and completely unique in the history of figure skating.

MK is something once she finds "the zone".

But I don't think Cohen has found "the zone" yet. She did have one relatively good performance- 2004 worlds SP- which I thought was good but not great. I have not once seen her "let go" during one of her performances. If someone can find one please show it to me.

Both skaters have unique "features" about them- yes. One can convey emotional feelings to a lot of people, and one has a "balletic style" as you say, and that also interests a certain group of people. They are both great at what they do. They just don't move me like they've done so many other people. What I think doesn't take away from the fact that they're good at what they do.

JMO.

SkateFan4Life · Sep 30, 2005

Whether or not Sasha was in or out of "the zone" at the 2005 Nationals, I thought she was was a joy to watch, and seeing the replay of her long program was a delight. As I wrote initially, I have never seen her skate with such joy and freedom, as in the past, she always seemed tense and more afraid of making a mistake than going out there and just skating a great program.

We may see some wonderful things from Sasha in the upcoming Olympic season. This may be her golden year. Good luck, Sasha! :clap:

R.D. · Sep 30, 2005

SkateFan4Life said:
Whether or not Sasha was in or out of "the zone" at the 2005 Nationals, I thought she was was a joy to watch, and seeing the replay of her long program was a delight. As I wrote initially, I have never seen her skate with such joy and freedom, as in the past, she always seemed tense and more afraid of making a mistake than going out there and just skating a great program.

I would have to re-watch Cohen's program to know whether or not to agree with this, but from what I remember, she DID seem to fight through it. She was just in a "transition" mode and for someone in such a mode I thought she did a respectable job.

We may see some wonderful things from Sasha in the upcoming Olympic season. This may be her golden year. Good luck, Sasha!

Let's cross our fingers and hope for this from ALL the skaters. :agree:

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 30, 2005

kyla2 said:
One transports you emotionally and commands the ice unlike any other skater who has ever skated, and the other has a balletic style that is breathtaking and completely unique in the history of figure skating. I respect them both tremendously and I am very grateful that I have lived long enough to see them.

Kyla - If you were older than me you would have seen a skater called Belita in several ice skating movies, which unfortunatley never made it to tape. Belita was the first super-flexible skater with spirals in the 180 degree position, and as much as she was acrobatic, she was also most ballet-like. In fact at that time most of the ladies were all balletic like. It was the time to show the public that Henie's kitchy Koo could be done differently and more in psuedo artistry.

Check out Belita's movies. The one I liked the best was called Suspense, I think. It is a film noir with Belita split jumping through sabre knives, and the Mob ganging up on her. Wild movie. Not your sweet little girl movie.

Joe

gezando · Sep 30, 2005

kyla2 said:
Gezando, as always, you miss my point.

As always your point is filled with worship like gush, but then you admit to being an uber fan.

take a real close look at what she (Cohen) does on the ice when she is in her zone (maybe not "perfect" zone). She is magnificent... the other (Cohen) has a balletic style that is breathtaking and completely unique in the history of figure skating.

I have seen Cohen up close in live competitions a few times. I haven't seen her in a zone yet. My speculation is , even if she is in a zone, that contributes to her technical marks, Artistically, she lacks musical versatility, so being in a zone does not help much there. If she is magnificient to you, then worhsip and enjoy, but going on and on about "critics can only skate like her in their dreams" Guess what, your dream is another's nightmare. From watching Cohen live and close, IMO her skating is superficially pretty that is skin deep. In general, I do not consider artists whose output is mostly superfically pretty as impressive, that includes PIT.

You may think Cohen has a balletic style, I think she has a gymnastic style. Anyway the rule book does not say balletic style should be rewarded with more points. If I want to watch ballet, I know where to buy tix.

gezando · Sep 30, 2005

SkateFan4Life said:
Whether or not Sasha was in or out of "the zone" at the 2005 Nationals, I thought she was was a joy to watch, and seeing the replay of her long program was a delight. As I wrote initially, I have never seen her skate with such joy and freedom, as in the past, she always seemed tense and more afraid of making a mistake than going out there and just skating a great program.

Actually the only time when Cohen skated with joy IMO was her 2000 national sp, unfortunately JMO that is her hightest achievement so far in terms of being joyful, free, and artistic. Then she skated her worst in the lp of the same competition, :eek:

and butchered Mendelssohn's VC.

jesslily · Sep 30, 2005

2000 nationals was Sasha's first year competing as Senior. It's very exciting and fresh for her. She just mastered all the triples and couldn't wait to show her skating ability. Good skating is 50% from technique and 50% from happy mind.

kyla2 · Sep 30, 2005

More Thoughts......

Joe, well I'm 52 but I sure haven't seen or even heard of Belita. I will have to look around for the movie. Thanks for the tip.

Gezando, I don't gush. I do say what I think and I mean what I say. Sasha is very special and so is Michelle but in very different ways. You are certainly entitled to think differently, but I suspect I will ultimately have skating history/historians on my side. I believe both Michelle and Sasha will surprise us this year with very solid programs and a determination to stay upright on the ice. I think that holds true for Shizuka as well.

gezando · Oct 1, 2005

kyla2 said:
Gezando, I don't gush. I do say what I think and I mean what I say.

You admit to being an uber fan, of course when you gush, it is part of the job description

Sasha is very special and so is Michelle but in very different ways. You are certainly entitled to think differently,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just don't attack people who think differently. (quoting kyla "In my line of work you have FOI, indicative of an illness", or "I will gladly bet your life...")

I suspect I will ultimately have skating history/historians on my side..... Sasha will surprise us this year with very solid programs and a determination to stay upright on the ice

A bit of bragging from fans is normal with any sports.

My favorite is so special, she will ..........

kyla2 · Oct 1, 2005

gezando

Please tell me, what's it like to live in your world where everything has a negative spin and if something positive is said about someone you don't particularly admire, you call it being an "uber fan" or "trash talking"? You personalize everything, which is unnecessary. How about a conversation someday where you don't attack or label people (it isn't just me either, i see you do it to other posters).

gezando · Oct 1, 2005

negative . and attack..

I believe when you post your cv here to put others down by saying they have a mental illness that is one of the most negative thing I have ever read, and that is an attack., IMO when you said, " I would happily bet your life on just about anything......" (Kyla do you deny making that statement?) That too is one of the most negative thing I have ever read. And how is it like to live in your world, making a statement "I will bet your life on ...." considering your line of work?? i believe you are the one who is personalizing your attack, by posting your resume.

kyla2 said:
call it being an "uber fan"

Actually, you are the one who first call others as uber fans when they disagree with you that Cohen is the most exquiste skater. Do you deny ever making this following accusation " I recognize a few of you from the other forum as beyond Uber fans. .... Talk about your Uber fans. "

I believe you identified yourself as an uber fan, so I am just agreeing with you.

or "trash talking"?

Well trash talking is from me, but trash talking is a common practice among sports fan, there is nothing negative about it. Trash talking means when fans are bragging about "my favorite can beat all the rest of the field, or my favorite is the most exquisite skater, etc. And you are the one who is bragging that your favorite is the most exquisite skater, etc Since you are the one who is bragging that your favorite as the most special, and you are the one who was calling everyone as an uber fan when they disagreed with you, I interpret that as trash talking. But if you are sensitive about the term trash talk, I have changed it to bragging.

kyla2 · Oct 1, 2005

Gezando

Well, I can see that you remember everything I have ever written and deliberately take it out of context, and give every word and every sentence I have ever written its most negative connotation. That speaks volumes about you. For myself, I don't remember anything you have ever said on this site.

2005 Nationals on ESPN last evening - Sasha Cohen's long program

Piel

On Edge

R.D.

anniemg

gezando

gezando

Joesitz (RIP)

gezando

kyla2

R.D.

SkateFan4Life

Guest

R.D.

Joesitz (RIP)

gezando

gezando

jesslily

kyla2

gezando

kyla2

gezando

kyla2

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