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Thread: 2005 Nationals on ESPN last evening - Sasha Cohen's long program

  1. #31
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    In the new season it's unlikely that a relatively new skater places ahead of many who have been in the international scene for years, no matter how many hard tricks she has. Sasha has a special place in the judges and officials thought.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezando
    Interesting, didn't you mention in another thread that skating single to Pas de
    deux is oh so difficult??? Now you are saying it is just schmaltz music. Schmaltzy or not, if Cohen chose the music, then she should try her best to interpret it, or like you said skate the "essence" of the piece. Actually PIT's music is probably one of the easiest to pretend to skate to, even though he is not the greatest composer in history, he had an amazing gift of melody / tunefulnes. His music is easy to the ears including the judges ears. Among Tchaikovsky pieces skated last year, Pas de Deux is easier to interpret than Romeo and Juliet so IMO at least Arakawa was willing to try a piece that is more challenging.
    I believe he was mainly pointing out that Pas de Deux is Dance for Two that it is better suited for pairs rather than singles skaters. Wasn't there gossip that Marina Zueva, the choreographer, initially tried to talk Sasha out of it?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesslily
    Sasha skated both long and short at nationals a lot better than at worlds last year. It's not deniable that she has many things that her competitiors do not have. Flexibilty does not necessarily produce beautiful positions for many skaters. But Sasha can use her flexibility to make remarkable results.
    Jesslily - I personally think that non fans of classical ballet get caught up in flexibility on the ice. Fans of classical ballet see so much of it that they just consider it part of the territory. In fact, one can never be a dancer or an athlete without flexibility. Watching a baseball player stretch his body to catch a ball; watching a hip hop dancer gyrate his body is incredible flexibility.

    given the necessity of flexibility in sports and dance, I understand you to to be saying that Sasha's flexibility is the best. I think so too in terms of the arabesques - not so much in her jump landings.

    If we nitpick positively on arabesques I believe one could say Sasha is most flexible. If we nitpick positiveley on other aspects of arabesques, she is among the crowd. JMO.

    It's a WOW factor for Sasha and she gets her due with it. For me, it's a one thing in a routine, and there is so much more to figure skating. I look for skaters whose concentration is mostly on feeling the music. This I saw once in Cleveland for Sasha and again in Moscow. Others, imo, see the high spiral leg and consider it the ultimate in figure skating. I don't.

    rJulie - You are correct. The music by PIT was composed as a pas de deux. It's sensuous and beautiful melodies are made for two people. Shen and Zhao did a fine job with it. However, I let the skater use any music he wants and show me his feeling for it. Imo, Sasha used the swells in that music to compliment her spirals. They become highlight tricks and when the swells die down, well....

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 09-29-2005 at 05:21 AM.

  4. #34
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    I said it lots of times so far but i'm saying it again: I thought that Sasha was truly mesmerising at 2004 Worlds SP. She was amazing that night. And I know that when she's on, she's the best, both technically as well as artisticaly. She can show emotion, she can move people, she can give her heart, but there's something holding her back, and i think it's the stress of the long program. OMG I have to do 6 triples, will that jump work, will I fall on the other one? And, while she's skating, at first she's so scared she can't even smile, but then she kind of ;;clicks' and says that 'oh i'm not expressing myself and i'm already in half of the program' and she starts to smile in a fake way cause she's still so scared.

    So, she doesn't even manage to reach 'the zone' before the end of her LP. However, during the SP she does better cause she's not as scared, as she knows she has all the elements and it will finish soon.

    And that's just my opinion

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by anniemg
    I said it lots of times so far but i'm saying it again: I thought that Sasha was truly mesmerising at 2004 Worlds SP. She was amazing that night. And I know that when she's on, she's the best, both technically as well as artisticaly. She can show emotion, she can move people, she can give her heart, but there's something holding her back, and i think it's the stress of the long program.

    And that's just my opinion
    But this can be said about several skaters...:when they're "on". So IMO it comes down to who is "on" most consistently. As much as I would like to have the Sasha experience that her fans keep talking about I have yet to be moved by her. I can't get past the "did everyone like me" vibe that I get from her. Maybe this season will be different.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piel
    But this can be said about several skaters...:when they're "on". So IMO it comes down to who is "on" most consistently. As much as I would like to have the Sasha experience that her fans keep talking about I have yet to be moved by her. I can't get past the "did everyone like me" vibe that I get from her. Maybe this season will be different.
    This is what it boils down to for me. (Instead that I wouldn't say I'm seeking the Sasha experience)

    Interesting that you get "did everyone like me" from her. I don't...I see more of a "I don't really want to be here" esp. during her FS and a "look at me, I'm so good" vibe in the SP. This includes the 2004 worlds sp- still didn't feel it from her. I honestly don't think she was that great. As I said before she gives me that "cold, introverted" feeling- as if she is skating for herself and not for the audience. At least with a couple of other skaters I sometimes feel SOMETHING (even if it's not enough to really dig the performance).

    JMO.

  7. #37
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    Yes it can be said about several skaters, but it depends on who's the best when he/she's on. If three skaters are on only one will win anyway. And for that will always be Sasha because she has more qualities. It's not bad to say what you're sayin about her, it's not normal that everyone will like her. Me, for example, I don't find anything special in Plushenko, or any of the dance couples(though i do root for some). Some skaters move you and you can't explain why, but they only move you . I dont know if i'm making a lot of sense...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by anniemg
    Some skaters move you and you can't explain why, but they only move you . I dont know if i'm making a lot of sense...
    I can buy that. It hasn't happened to me (yet) but I could see that it's maybe a certain style, or something the skater does, that just amazes you. Then you start to become a fan. This is why we get uber-fans of Michelle, Irina, Sasha...

  9. #39
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    Anniemg that makes perfect sense to me. As much as I try I still don't get Torville and Dean. og


    Red Dog it's not that I want to be a Sasha Fan it's that I know so little about skating that I'm afraid that I am missing something. Same goes for the T&D thing.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piel


    Red Dog it's not that I want to be a Sasha Fan it's that I know so little about skating that I'm afraid that I am missing something.
    Piel- I didn't take your comment to mean that you were looking to be a Sasha fan- I just took it to mean you wanted the EXPERIENCE of enjoying watching her. Unlike many other posters I actually do believe there is a DIFFERENCE between the two. Some people are just quick to throw out the "fan" label, it seems...

    (I'm in the same boat by the way- not knowing much about skating- at least the nuances of it like the points, the jumps, etc.)

  11. #41
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    Uber Kwan fan that I am, I don't think I want to be that much of a fan of any skater again. I am getting too old for so much drama, LOL. WVU football is about all of the exitement and heart break that I can stand these days. I would like to to know more about the figure skating in order to appreciate more skaters and diciplines. Before Kwan I was a Kerrigan fan. With both of them it was not their actual skating that sucked me in at first but more the human interest stories that came along with them. Red Dog you may be on to something....non-fan may be the way to go. My blood pressure thanks you .

  12. #42
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    Yeah- "non-fan" doesn't mean you hate everybody. "non-fan" just simply means that you may or may not enjoy watching skating (in my case I like the excitement that comes with major comps) and no one skater particularly moves you or stands out to you. Why this concept is so difficult for certain fans to comprehend, I'll never know. But I know I'm not the only "non-fan" around here . So it's not a bad thing. If you feel your like for kwan is fading, come on over!

    BTW- being a non-fan isn't without it's "gotchas" either. Besides being called a fan of any skater you may talk about for 30 seconds, or dedicate a couple of online posts to, I know I still feel it during competitions. Now, I don't get myself sick like a uber-Kwan or uber-Cohen fan might but I definitely feel the adrenaline because I'm eager to know the results, and see how everyone skates. (It's a great feeling though. It's not a "worry" feeling but just an anxious feeling.)

  13. #43
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    If it counts, i'm a non fan for pairs and dance! I like some skaters more than the others, but i'm not a real fan. I'm rooting for Sasha and Lambiel most!

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjulie510
    I believe he was mainly pointing out that Pas de Deux is Dance for Two that it is better suited for pairs rather than singles skaters. Wasn't there gossip that Marina Zueva, the choreographer, initially tried to talk Sasha out of it?
    I think choreographers has traditionally let 2 people dance to this piece. But IMO, there is nothing about this piece of music that screams out for pair or 2 people. ( I mean there is no, look here is a hocket, and we don't have a soprano line and a tenor line doing an imitative polyphony ) Since it is always advocated here at GS that skaters are not acting the story of a ballet or opera, they should just skate to the essence of the music, and IMO the essence of pas de deux is just a piece of superficially pretty with no particular depth kind of music. I don't see why skating single is more difficult than skating paris. Many may say, pas de deux has been made famous by many ballet dancers and skaters, but Cohen took the risk by choosing this piece. So far her performance of this piece at best is skin deep superficially prettiness, but IMO that has nothing to do with skating single to this piece.

    As far as pas de deux being a sensual piece of music, JMO, it is not really that sensual, it is melodic and tuneful , easy to the judges ears. Romeo and Juliet overture is a lot more sensual in an intense hormonal way Just listen to the sighing theme leading to the hormonal love theme. Robert Greenberg even used the O word for R and J's love theme.
    Last edited by gezando; 09-29-2005 at 05:37 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog
    if this statement actually held water, skating forums wouldn't exist
    You just made my point. I was responding to kyla's

    " For her (Cohen) critics all I can say is you can skate like her in your dreams if your lucky."

    I know someone dream can be another's nightmare.

    .
    ..but come on. The fact that this is even an issue is laughable. look- only about 5 people can skate like Cohen or Kwan, and they sure as hell don't post here
    .
    You just made my point again
    Last edited by gezando; 09-29-2005 at 05:38 PM.

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