ISU ladies standings

millie · Sep 29, 2005

Just checking out the ISU standings going into the Olympic year, WOW, what does all this mean, if anything.

http://www.isufs.org/ws/wladies.htm.

Can somebody explain? Thanks.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 29, 2005

It means Joannie and Susanna are among the top 10 skaters in the Worlds. Michelle's absence on the list is noteworthy.

Joe

soogar · Sep 29, 2005

What the ISU really needs to do is make worlds an open event and allow all qualified skaters who meet threshold requirements to compete (and not limit strong countries to 3 entrants and allow really weak countries to send 1 entrant). Then you would really have an indicator as to the skaters' true placement. No one takes the rankings seriously except for the lower ranked skaters who need the placements to secure GP invitations.

Sylvia · Sep 29, 2005

The rankings criteria, along with the men's, pairs and dance standings, is linked from this ISU page:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-130267-131575-nav-list,00.html

Kwan is currently #16 (ladies go to down #169) based on the criteria, which is heavily weighted towards results from Junior and Senior Grand Prix events and Four Continents, for example.

soogar · Sep 29, 2005

Joesitz said:
It means Joannie and Susanna are among the top 10 skaters in the Worlds. Michelle's absence on the list is noteworthy.

Joe

All her absence means is that she didn't compete the GP. She is considerably higher ranked in worlds and judges' estimation. It's noteworthy that Michelle doesn't need to be "ranked highly" to consistently receive 2 event invites.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 29, 2005

But she lost a World's medal - first time in 10 years - Maybe it's indicative that she is losing her 'high' standing.

Joe

emma · Sep 29, 2005

Joesitz said:
But she lost a World's medal - first time in 10 years - Maybe it's indicative that she is losing her 'high' standing.

Joe

She was low (relatively) on the ISU standings last year too and on the podium...these rankings are based on how many ISU sanctioned competitions you are in, and then even those are weighted if I'm not mistaken, and include more than one year.

anyway, it is, of course, impossible to disagree Joe -- I mean she did finish off the podium for the first time in 10 years last season, and thus 'lost' her podium standing, clearly a decline.

R.D. · Sep 29, 2005

As I say, this list is heavily biased towards the skaters who do the GP. But is that list accurate? I don't know. I don't think so but that's JMO.

I can't buy that Suguri should be #3 on that list. And Irina in fourth? After dominating last season? Why isn't she number one?

Yes, MK not getting a world medal WILL hurt her standings here.

gkelly · Sep 29, 2005

Red Dog said:
And Irina in fourth? After dominating last season? Why isn't she number one?

Because she missed all of the 03-04 season except for Worlds, where she had a mediocre result. (And also missed 2003 Worlds, although it appears that they've wiped all the results from that year for everyone now that the 05-06 season has begun.)

Again, these rankings don't tell us who is the best, second best, etc., skater in the world at any given time.

They tell us who has had the best combination of results in international events across the last three seasons. In general, better skaters will get better results and more ranking points. But participating in fewer competitions, whether because you just don't want to, you're physically unable to during the week of competition, or your federation chooses not to send you, or any other reason, gets you fewer points, regardless of the actual quality of your skating.

R.D. · Sep 29, 2005

OK then, that's their problem. They need to do the ranking system YEAR BY YEAR. I don't think it works to combine the results of past competitions because the standings change every year. If they didn't, wouldn't the podium at Worlds (and other int. comps) look the same year after year? I believe THAT's why it's off.

As for MK being in 16th- as harsh as it might sound she's only participated in worlds. Going by the way they are ranking this system it makes sense for her to be there. However it's still a bit low and worlds results should be given more weight (I think she should still be in top 10 territory). JMO.

R.D. · Sep 29, 2005

They tell us who has had the best combination of results in international events across the last three seasons. In general, better skaters will get better results and more ranking points. But participating in fewer competitions, whether because you just don't want to, you're physically unable to during the week of competition, or your federation chooses not to send you, or any other reason, gets you fewer points, regardless of the actual quality of your skating.

If this is how they do it then they should title it so. It's misleading to call a list like this "world standings". JMO...

Mathman · Sep 29, 2005

All of this is explained with great clarity in the link Sylvia provided (click on "Explanation of Criteria").

equestrianguy · Sep 29, 2005

gkelly said:
Because she missed all of the 03-04 season except for Worlds, where she had a mediocre result. (And also missed 2003 Worlds, although it appears that they've wiped all the results from that year for everyone now that the 05-06 season has begun.)

Again, these rankings don't tell us who is the best, second best, etc., skater in the world at any given time.

They tell us who has had the best combination of results in international events across the last three seasons. In general, better skaters will get better results and more ranking points. But participating in fewer competitions, whether because you just don't want to, you're physically unable to during the week of competition, or your federation chooses not to send you, or any other reason, gets you fewer points, regardless of the actual quality of your skating.

I don't think 4th in the World is a mediocre result. We were all just disappionted that she didn't medal and do the GP events..

gkelly · Sep 29, 2005

equestrianguy said:
I don't think 4th in the World is a mediocre result. We were all just disappionted that she didn't medal and do the GP events..

I was referring to Slutskaya's 9th place at 2004 Worlds.

skatingfan5 · Sep 29, 2005

What the ISU ranking list means

millie said:
Just checking out the ISU standings going into the Olympic year, WOW, what does all this mean, if anything.

http://www.isufs.org/ws/wladies.htm.

Can somebody explain? Thanks.

It means that skaters who competed at and did well at Worlds (Sr/Jr), Euros or 4CC's, and the GP (Sr/Jr) series in the past two/three years have a higher ISU ranking than skaters who:
a) did not do well at those events, or
b) did not compete at all of those events, or
c) did not get a chance to compete at those events
during the same time frame.

Joesitz said:
It means Joannie and Susanna are among the top 10 skaters in the Worlds. Michelle's absence on the list is noteworthy.

Michelle IS on the list, just not on the first page. As others have said, she is #16 on the ISU ranking list.

Joesitz said:
But she lost a World's medal - first time in 10 years - Maybe it's indicative that she is losing her 'high' standing.

A gold medal at 2005 Worlds would have given Michelle 1200 points -- her 4th place yielded her only 150 points less -- 1050. That difference is negligible compared to the points she didn't have because of not competing in the GP series the past two seasons. After all, Amber Corwin earned 525 points for her 5th and 8th GP placements last year. Add a low estimate of 1250 total points for the past two GP seasons, and you have over 3000 points, or in the top 3. What is shows is that by not competing in the GP series, Michelle's ranking is much lower than it would otherwise be. If the ISU ranking mattered a great deal to Michelle, I'm sure she would have put those events higher on her priority list. It's obviously higher on the ISU's list than it is on Michelle's the past few years. But she previously competed in the series (two and three events plus final) for quite a few seasons (5 at least).

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 29, 2005

gkelly said:
I was referring to Slutskaya's 9th place at 2004 Worlds.

I shouldn't open a can of worms here because IS was just getting out of sick bed, but she was held up getting that ninth place. If I remember correctly Susanna and Joannie skated better than her in Dortmund and I believe they were finished behind her.

Joe

soogar · Sep 29, 2005

gkelly said:
They tell us who has had the best combination of results in international events across the last three seasons. In general, better skaters will get better results and more ranking points. But participating in fewer competitions, whether because you just don't want to, you're physically unable to during the week of competition, or your federation chooses not to send you, or any other reason, gets you fewer points, regardless of the actual quality of your skating.

Well that's what a ranking is all about. In tennis, if a player misses a season or doesn't play in many events, the player's ranking suffers unless this player is able to win the really big events (Grand Slams) that are heavily weighted. The skating rankings are messed up because not every skater gets to compete in Worlds and only a handful of skaters compete in GP events. Also there are many skaters who compete the GP who don't go to Worlds and vice versa. I feel that since skaters have to compete in qualifying rounds anyway at worlds, let as many skaters who qualify (via Nationals [for skaters who don't receive GP invites and are from smaller federations] , the Grand Prix and prior worlds) compete. That way you can legitimately give the World championships a lot of weight (as well as 4Cs and Euros) and it would be an accurate reflection of where everyone stands. I also think that it would encourage more US skaters to compete in 4Cs and make that event as prestigious as Euros if they knew that they had a shot to compete at Worlds based on 4C results. If it means 6 US ladies and 5 Japanese ladies competing in worlds then all the better. It definitely would bring up the level of competition because quite frankly, the event would be more competitive if the 5th ranked Japanese lady competed instead of one of those skaters who wouldn't even make it out of sectionals if they tried for the US team (ie the OES skaters).

soogar · Sep 29, 2005

Joesitz said:
I shouldn't open a can of worms here because IS was just getting out of sick bed, but she was held up getting that ninth place. If I remember correctly Susanna and Joannie skated better than her in Dortmund and I believe they were finished behind her.

Joe

She was held up because I think she only landed 3 triples , while Jenny Kirk made 5 triple attempts and landed 3 and finished 17th or something.

gkelly · Sep 29, 2005

soogar said:
I feel that since skaters have to compete in qualifying rounds anyway at worlds, let as many skaters who qualify (via Nationals [for skaters who don't receive GP invites and are from smaller federations] , the Grand Prix and prior worlds) compete.

Of course, if you did this, it would require more than two qual rounds, more ice time, more officials, hotel time, etc., all of which adds to the cost.

And would make Worlds even more of a big event in all senses of the word, which might indeed be a positive thing.

You probably still have to draw the line somewhere at the number of entries per country, even if you make the maximum 5 or 10 instead of 3.

My suggestion, in that case, would be to give every federation one free entry in each discipline, and charge a high entry fee for every additional skater/team entered, or some variation on that theme, to help cover the additional costs.

Meanwhile, the main significance of the current ISU ranking system is to determine which skaters who didn't compete at the last Worlds or didn't finish well there get priority for Grand Prix invitations, especially the ones who don't represent GP host countries. For that purpose it works well enough. Just don't expect a direct correlation between the rankings and the latest Worlds results.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 29, 2005

I really don't find fault with the ISU's rankings. The criteria is clear and if a skater cares about this, the skater will enter that many more ISU events.

In Michelle's case, I think she couldn't care less.

Joe

ISU ladies standings

millie

Joesitz (RIP)

soogar

Sylvia

soogar

Joesitz (RIP)

emma

R.D.

gkelly

R.D.

R.D.

Mathman

equestrianguy

gkelly

skatingfan5

Joesitz (RIP)

soogar

soogar

gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

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