Campbell's judging details & panels published

Sylvia · Oct 11, 2005

http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_details.asp?id=30612

The judges and other officials are listed under "Event Information" in the upper right corner (2 PDF documents) while the detailed protocols are the "Judges Reports" in the "Photos/Videos" section.

brinababy87 · Oct 11, 2005

I already posted this at FSU, but this is awful scoring, at least on Sasha's part.

One judge gave her a 0 GOE for the 3-2-2, with the flutz and the step out;
The caller didn't count the 3T/step mowhawk/3S a sequence, which it may not be but it was called such at Worlds;
The first 3S was counted as a triple, even though it was underrotated (http://tinypic.com/ei43sm.jpg),
and so the second 3S didn't count at all.

R.D. · Oct 11, 2005

brinababy87 said:
I already posted this at FSU, but this is awful scoring, at least on Sasha's part.

One judge gave her a 0 GOE for the 3-2-2, with the flutz and the step out;
The caller didn't count the 3T/step mowhawk/3S a sequence, which it may not be but it was called such at Worlds;
The first 3S was counted as a triple, even though it was underrotated (http://tinypic.com/ei43sm.jpg),
and so the second 3S didn't count at all.

So, for someone who doesn't quite understand all the numbers...

Do you think that Cohen was scored higher or lower than she should have been?

brinababy87 · Oct 11, 2005

Red Dog said:
So, for someone who doesn't quite understand all the numbers...

Do you think that Cohen was scored higher or lower than she should have been?

Well, I'm not entirely sure myself. With the extra 3S it adds points, but the first 3S would have been downgraded and have a -GOE, and the first combo should have been a lower GOE so overall, she should have been scored lower.

I am a Sasha fan, but I would have preferred for her to have a correct score, whether it be higher or lower.

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 11, 2005

brinababy87 said:
One judge gave her a 0 GOE for the 3-2-2, with the flutz and the step out;

There are a number of judges who like Sasha. I would think this score reflects one of them. Judges are as biased as the fans.

Anyway, you got her number one fan all worked up.

Joe

bdreampixie · Oct 11, 2005

brinababy87 said:
I already posted this at FSU, but this is awful scoring, at least on Sasha's part.

One judge gave her a 0 GOE for the 3-2-2, with the flutz and the step out;
The caller didn't count the 3T/step mowhawk/3S a sequence, which it may not be but it was called such at Worlds;
The first 3S was counted as a triple, even though it was underrotated (http://tinypic.com/ei43sm.jpg),
and so the second 3S didn't count at all.

The rules for COP were revised over the summer and it was stressed that there can't be any stroking, or crossovers between the two jumps in a seq. I haven't seen Sasha's program so I'm not sure how it was executed, but her seq. at Worlds seemed to be a falling leaf, stroke and then 3sal. If she did it that way, then I don't believe it should count.

Her scores seem rather generous, but I'll wait until I see her program.

brinababy87 · Oct 11, 2005

bdreampixie said:
The rules for COP were revised over the summer and it was stressed that there can't be any stroking, or crossovers between the two jumps in a seq. I haven't seen Sasha's program so I'm not sure how it was executed, but her seq. at Worlds seemed to be a falling leaf, stroke and then 3sal. If she did it that way, then I don't believe it should count.

Her scores seem rather generous, but I'll wait until I see her program.

Well, that would make sense why they counted it differently then.

Here's a short clip of the sequence.
http://s27.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=18I2PB6DATOUC3VTY9P30GJLCE

bdreampixie · Oct 11, 2005

brinababy87 said:
Well, that would make sense why they counted it differently then.

Here's a short clip of the sequence.
http://s27.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=18I2PB6DATOUC3VTY9P30GJLCE

Thanks, brinababy87 for the clip.

Well, it looks like she does the 3t, falling leaf, 3s. No stroking or crossovers in between. Going by the rules it should probably have been called a seq. although she seemd to pause after the 3t, which the caller could have taken as a break in rhythm, but.. It looks like a seq. to me.

I wonder who the caller and judges were at this comp. They seem to have done a poor job, but I'll wait until the broadcast to start that rant. LOL

Lucy25 · Oct 11, 2005

bdreampixie said:
Thanks, brinababy87 for the clip.

Well, it looks like she does the 3t, falling leaf, 3s. No stroking or crossovers in between. Going by the rules it should probably have been called a seq. although she seemd to pause after the 3t, which the caller could have taken as a break in rhythm, but.. It looks like a seq. to me.

I'm confused, that turn she makes on the ice is called a falling leaf?

dancindiva03 · Oct 11, 2005

Does not look at all like a sequence to me. Waaaaaaay to long of a pause after the first jump and too many steps in between.

Mathman · Oct 11, 2005

dancindiva03 said:
Does not look at all like a sequence to me. Waaaaaaay to long of a pause after the first jump and too many steps in between.

And the tech specialist agreed. This is the advantage of getting your program out there early. Sasha has plenty of chance to tighten up the sequence and so up her point total by getting credit for the second Salchow.

On the other hand, I am not too concerned about the judge that did not take a deduction in COE on Sasha's opening combo. Another judge took off -2, so it all averaged out to -1, which seems about right.

I guess that's why there are five judges. Maybe the first judge saw something on the positve side that balanced the errors.

MM

orchid · Oct 11, 2005

Joesitz said:
There are a number of judges who like Sasha. I would think this score reflects one of them. Judges are as biased as the fans.

Anyway, you got her number one fan all worked up.

Joe

Are you suggesting the COP may/will be based of judge preference? Just like 6.0?

R.D. · Oct 11, 2005

IMO it doesn't matter the judging system used- the simple fact that it is judged is enough to let me know there is, and will be, some bias involved in the results.

I really don't think we can truly decry the scores until we see the performances for ourselves. It's one thing to look at what happened on paper, and another thing to actually see it. JMO.

brinababy87 · Oct 11, 2005

Umm, if you all want the bootleg version...

bdreampixie · Oct 11, 2005

dancindiva03 said:
Does not look at all like a sequence to me. Waaaaaaay to long of a pause after the first jump and too many steps in between.

I agree that a seq. with a falling leaf doesn't look like a real seq. I thought the same of Joannie's seq. last season. There seeems to be too many steps and too much of a pause in between. A real seq. to me is like the one Tara did at the Olys. or Maria B.'s. According to the rules though, any mazurka or unlisted jump is all right in a seq.

Rgirl · Oct 13, 2005

I've looked at the judges' scoring sheets and am I wrong or was this just a five-judge panel? If it was, then it really wasn't a true Code of Points (COP) competition.

Don't quote me on the specifics of this since I haven't boned up on the new COP rules, but a true COP-judged event includes 9, 11, or 13 judges. The two high and two low scores are thrown out for each element and component. Also, all the scores for two randomly chosen judges are thrown out. By throwing out high and low scores, bias is reduced -- we hope.

If there were only five judges for Campbell's, questions about such things as what constitutes a sequence and what negates it are certainly within the realm of the Campbell's competition; however, the point totals aren't reflective of what they would be with a full panel of judges and the appropriate scores thrown out.

As I said, I'm not sure how many judges were used, but just wanted to make that point.

Rgirl

antmanb · Oct 13, 2005

Lucy25 said:
I'm confused, that turn she makes on the ice is called a falling leaf?

No - if she'd have jumped it properly with any flight it would have counted as a falling leaf and i think is what cost her it being called a sequence. A falling leaf should take off from a back outside edge, a half turn in the air and land on the left toe pick pushing onto the right skate (not sure if one particular edge is more desirable than the other). The split falling leaf is the same jump but with a split position attained at the top of the jump.

Watching the combo in slow motion she does the triple toe, holds the edge, then to my mind does a BO three turn pushes with the left toe pick onto a RFI edge(so that's the stroke) then does a RFI mohawk into the 3S...had she actually jumped a falling leaf the toe assisted landing would have been just the landing of the middle jump with the landing edge going straight into a mohawk entry 3S which i think would have been called a sequence. The difference between this "sequence" and the one she did at worlds was that she actually did a falling leaf not a BO three turn.

Ant

antmanb · Oct 13, 2005

Mathman said:
And the tech specialist agreed. This is the advantage of getting your program out there early. Sasha has plenty of chance to tighten up the sequence and so up her point total by getting credit for the second Salchow.

On the other hand, I am not too concerned about the judge that did not take a deduction in COE on Sasha's opening combo. Another judge took off -2, so it all averaged out to -1, which seems about right.

I guess that's why there are five judges. Maybe the first judge saw something on the positve side that balanced the errors.

MM

Was any part of the 3 jump combo particularly brilliant though? If the whole thing (without flaws) was a plus GOE jump combo then -1 is probably ok but if it was just ok then with her severe flutz and step/turn out, that to me is a -2 GOE.

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 13, 2005

Rgirl said:
I've looked at the judges' scoring sheets and am I wrong or was this just a five-judge panel? If it was, then it really wasn't a true Code of Points (COP) competition.As I said, I'm not sure how many judges were used, but just wanted to make that point.Rgirl

I'm as weak as you are Rgirl on the CoP. But from years past there has always been a 5 panel judgeship for the cheesefests. If Mr. Campbell pays the international judges expenses, it's probably in the budget for 5 judges. Just a guess.

Joe

Doggygirl · Oct 13, 2005

brinababy87 said:
I already posted this at FSU, but this is awful scoring, at least on Sasha's part.

One judge gave her a 0 GOE for the 3-2-2, with the flutz and the step out;
The caller didn't count the 3T/step mowhawk/3S a sequence, which it may not be but it was called such at Worlds;
The first 3S was counted as a triple, even though it was underrotated (http://tinypic.com/ei43sm.jpg),
and so the second 3S didn't count at all.

I think there were additional clarifications added to the 2005/2006 ISU rules regarding jump sequences. It's been a couple of months since I read the revised rules, but I'm just noting that I think it's possible that a "valid" sequence at World's might not be "valid" since the new rules came out.

A better NJS / COP expert than me would have to watch the sequence and comment. I'm just pointing that out as a possibility.

DG

Campbell's judging details & panels published

Sylvia

brinababy87

R.D.

brinababy87

Joesitz (RIP)

bdreampixie

brinababy87

bdreampixie

Lucy25

dancindiva03

Match Penalty

Mathman

orchid

R.D.

brinababy87

bdreampixie

Rgirl

antmanb

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

Doggygirl

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