Sasha injured

Losing interest in skating

I adore Michelle's skating, but one day she will no longer be an amateur skater.
Who will I like to watch? The skater who stays on her feet! That's who. The skater who is confident in her edges and can perform the most beautiful performance without the risk of flopping on the ice.

I am so bored with skating now, Too many falls. Once upon a time, I could shake my head and keep viewing, but lately, sorry, I change the channel.

Case in point the Campbell's broadcast and Joannie Rochette. Simple and beautiful skating, jumps exquisite then flop. Click.

First Michelle now Sasha. I wish both of them a Speedy recovery. TGhis is a bummer.

iTA

ITA that so many jumps/jump combinations are turning into a snore. It's becoming a major feat to see a completely clean program and a program performed as planned. I agree that other components need to be valued more but there should be a limit on the number of jumps and combinations. Right now, it's too much for both the women and the men and they are dealing with injuries left and right. i believe that includes all skaters, whether we are aware of their injuries or not. I don't agree that it is because the audience "wants" these jumps that this has happened. What the audience wants is a clean and beautiful performance-just like under the 6.0 system. Unfortunately, a clean program has lost its former value under the new system. I think that is a big mistake.

I was SO looking forward to seeing her compete!!!

To top it off, my husband has hurt his back and I may need to find someone else to drive me to SA or miss it.

They could limit jumps and extreme spin position and STILL leave the skaters lots to work on to advance the sport. Deeper edges, better Ina Bauers, MITF, ARTISTRY, jump entrances. I say put the figures back in figure skating. Watching the actual figures would not be good for the fans but would lead to better edging which in turn would lead to better skating and THAT fans want to see. When you think about how few clean programs we see without a 3/3 and quad there is lots of work to do without them.

millie,

I think the position of LOLL (lovely old luge lady) has already been taken in the US. I remember hearing about a lady luge Olympain who was in her forties or fifties in the last Winter Olympics. On the other hand, you're already a Canadian and maybe they could use a LOLL on their team too. (we wouldn't want our northern neighbors to feel left out!)

orchid said:

I adore Michelle's skating, but one day she will no longer be an amateur skater.
Who will I like to watch? The skater who stays on her feet! That's who. The skater who is confident in her edges and can perform the most beautiful performance without the risk of flopping on the ice.

I am so bored with skating now, Too many falls. Once upon a time, I could shake my head and keep viewing, but lately, sorry, I change the channel.

Case in point the Campbell's broadcast and Joannie Rochette. Simple and beautiful skating, jumps exquisite then flop. Click.

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Joannie was the highlight for me. That's how uninspiredd the rest seemed, even Sasha.

orchid said:

Sahsa is out due to a deep bruise and to be back in a week ??? Michelle, with ligament strain, is expected to begin training in the next few days. BUT, you write Michelle off for the entire GP season?

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Sasha's next event is Eric Bompard, November 17-20. She has a month to recover. I don't think it is impossible that she might recover from a hip pointer in, say, two weeks, which would give her two weeks to prepare.

The way Michelle's injury was reported, she needs at least two more weeks off the ice entirely. Her next GP event is Cup of China, November 3-6. Today is October 18. I do not see any chance at all that Michelle will be able to skate by November 3rd, but I think that Sasha might be able to skate by November 17th.

What I do think is a reasonable hope is that Michelle will be fully recovered by December 11th so she can do the Marshall's invitational. I hope so. We'll see.

Mathman

mathman, why would MK have to stay off for another two weeks? Aren't her two weeks up today? tomorrow? Why all of a sudden is she off the ice for a month?

So sad to hear about Sasha´s injury, and wishing her a speedy recovery... It is especially unfortunate for skaters to suffer injuries durng the Olympic season, but it happens. I´m though consoling myself with this thought: Ilia Kulik had a foot injury in August 1997 that kept him out of ice for over a month. Also he suffered from back injury most of the season and had to withdraw from 1998 Europeans. In spite of all that he won at the Olympics!!!

Bijoux said:

I'll explain my point but only cuz I have to.

CoP was supposed to be a better system for the athletes for many reasons. But it seems they want inbetweens, steps, sprirals, spins to count AND STILL WANT a 6 triple program. Maybe I should be blaming Kwan, Lipinski and Slute for having upped the ante so much under the 6.O.

It 'sstill a system that s:scratch: ***ks!

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Actually, I blame Sandra Bezic, Marie Reigne Le Gougne, Speedy, and Scott Hamilton for this new system. If the cheaters hadn't cheated, and if the media hadn't whined, maybe the proposal of the Australian federation, which was to improve 6.0 and make judges accountable would be the system currently in place, instead of this one, which I don't think solved the hanky panky problem one bit.

ltlpearl said:

mathman, why would MK have to stay off for another two weeks? Aren't her two weeks up today? tomorrow? Why all of a sudden is she off the ice for a month?

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According to the USFS new release on October 6,

"Her injury will require two weeks off from training followed by gradual resumption of skating and rehabilitation that could take up to one month. She hopes the injury will be healed in time to compete at the 2005 Cup of China in Beijing, China, Nov. 2-6, 2005."

http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=30981&type=news

IIRC the latest word from Shep Goldberg was that "there is a slight possibility" that she will be able to compete in Peking.

I think there is a difference between the two types of injury. Michelle's is a muscle strain. If she resumes work too soon it will just make it worse.

Sasha's is a bone bruise. What keeps her off the ice is the associated pain. Once it heals, there is no particular danger of reinjury, unless she falls again on the same hip.

JMO. We'll have to wait and see.

MM

kyla2 said:

ITA that so many jumps/jump combinations are turning into a snore. It's becoming a major feat to see a completely clean program and a program performed as planned. I agree that other components need to be valued more but there should be a limit on the number of jumps and combinations. Right now, it's too much for both the women and the men and they are dealing with injuries left and right. i believe that includes all skaters, whether we are aware of their injuries or not. I don't agree that it is because the audience "wants" these jumps that this has happened. What the audience wants is a clean and beautiful performance-just like under the 6.0 system. Unfortunately, a clean program has lost its former value under the new system. I think that is a big mistake.

Click to expand...

But i just don't understand how CoP gets the blame for the injuries...under 6.0 Hughes won SLC with two 3/3 combinations - with triple loops as the back half of those combinations (despite any fears of lipinksi-esque hip injuries), Irina was doing three jump combinations, kwan felt the pressure to be training 3T/3T for the Olympic Season - there is no difference there than i presume there has been for these Olympics...didn't Miki Ando land her quad in comeptition pre-Olympics? Sasha is no longer training the quad salchow under CoP like she was under 6.0.

Moving onto the Pairs - As far back as the season before Nagano 1998 Abitbol & Bernadis had been training the throw triple axel, they attempted it all season and just missed it all season. they then put it on the back burner as a result of injuries and then months before SLC (and completely throw 3A free) she had (i believe an achilles rupture) that kept them out of the Olympics...all 6.0. Shen & Zhao at the last Olympcis attempted a throw 4Sal, again just missed it but to my knowledge that was last time we heard about the 4Sal from them regardless of CoP coming in.

The men - ever since as far back as Elvis the men have been practising different quads in his hey day Elvis was landing 4T, 4S and 4Lz in practice and we all know what happened to him - all under 6.0. In SLC it was Yags who put out 2 quads and that was without CoP in place - he then had to retire because of the injuries caused on his hip and 6.0 is fairly and squarely to blame for those injuries. Pluschenko that season had been trying both quad lutzes and quad salchows in practice and was rumoured to be trying two different quads in one program - all 6.0. Joubert on his first trip to Europeans and Worlds (under 6.0) had been landing 4T, 4S, 4F and 4Lz in practice - again since the introduction of CoP i've not heard of him pushing for the higher quads anymore.

As far as the men's and ladies are conerned i don't think there really is an argument to say that training triples and or quads under 6.0 is any better for the body than under CoP - i think the training habbits and jumps have been just the samew ith every skater trying to psuh themselves as hard a possible to be the next big thing.

The only reason i don't include the pairs in this is because we have been told that Zhao Hongbo sustained his achilles injury practising 3T/3T. It is pretty likely that if the CoP had not been changed so that pairs skaters cannot repeat the same triple jump again unless it is combination with itself (i'm paraphrasing the rule but you know the one i mean) Zhoa would not have been practising that particular combination that has been stated as the reason for his injury. We don't know for sure that they wouldn't have been trying it anyway but its fairly likely that its the rule change that caused that.

Other than the particular pairs example and the introduction of that rule i can't see how CoP is any worse than 6.0 for training triples. It is arguable too that even without CoP we've been stuck for the last ten years with Pairs trying just 3T and 2As (with the odd 3S thrown in ignoring Rudy and Yama for this particular point!!) so maybe regardless of CoP the skaters were always going to start upping the type of jump attempted by this point in time?

Ant

kyla2 said:

ITA that so many jumps/jump combinations are turning into a snore. It's becoming a major feat to see a completely clean program and a program performed as planned. I agree that other components need to be valued more but there should be a limit on the number of jumps and combinations. Right now, it's too much for both the women and the men and they are dealing with injuries left and right. i believe that includes all skaters, whether we are aware of their injuries or not. I don't agree that it is because the audience "wants" these jumps that this has happened. What the audience wants is a clean and beautiful performance-just like under the 6.0 system. Unfortunately, a clean program has lost its former value under the new system. I think that is a big mistake.

Click to expand...

But i just don't understand how CoP gets the blame for the injuries...under 6.0 Hughes won SLC with two 3/3 combinations - with triple loops as the back half of those combinations (despite any fears of lipinksi-esque hip injuries), Irina was doing three jump combinations, kwan felt the pressure to be training 3T/3T for the Olympic Season - there is no difference there than i presume there has been for these Olympics...didn't Miki Ando land her quad in comeptition pre-Olympics? Sasha is no longer training the quad salchow under CoP like she was under 6.0.

Moving onto the Pairs - As far back as the season before Nagano 1998 Abitbol & Bernadis had been training the throw triple axel, they attempted it all season and just missed it all season. they then put it on the back burner as a result of injuries and then months before SLC (and completely throw 3A free) she had (i believe an achilles rupture) that kept them out of the Olympics...all 6.0. Shen & Zhao at the last Olympcis attempted a throw 4Sal, again just missed it but to my knowledge that was last time we heard about the 4Sal from them regardless of CoP coming in.

The men - ever since as far back as Elvis the men have been practising different quads in his hey day Elvis was landing 4T, 4S and 4Lz in practice and we all know what happened to him - all under 6.0. In SLC it was Yags who put out 2 quads and that was without CoP in place - he then had to retire because of the injuries caused on his hip and 6.0 is fairly and squarely to blame for those injuries. Pluschenko that season had been trying both quad lutzes and quad salchows in practice and was rumoured to be trying two different quads in one program - all 6.0. Joubert on his first trip to Europeans and Worlds (under 6.0) had been landing 4T, 4S, 4F and 4Lz in practice - again since the introduction of CoP i've not heard of him pushing for the higher quads anymore.

As far as the men's and ladies are conerned i don't think there really is an argument to say that training triples and or quads under 6.0 is any better for the body than under CoP - i think the training habbits and jumps have been just the samew ith every skater trying to psuh themselves as hard a possible to be the next big thing.

The only reason i don't include the pairs in this is because we have been told that Zhao Hongbo sustained his achilles injury practising 3T/3T. It is pretty likely that if the CoP had not been changed so that pairs skaters cannot repeat the same triple jump again unless it is combination with itself (i'm paraphrasing the rule but you know the one i mean) Zhoa would not have been practising that particular combination that has been stated as the reason for his injury. We don't know for sure that they wouldn't have been trying it anyway but its fairly likely that its the rule change that caused that.

Other than the particular pairs example and the introduction of that rule i can't see how CoP is any worse than 6.0 for training triples. It is arguable too that even without CoP we've been stuck for the last ten years with Pairs trying just 3T and 2As (with the odd 3S thrown in ignoring Rudy and Yama for this particular point!!) so maybe regardless of CoP the skaters were always going to start upping the type of jump attempted by this point in time?

Ant

It goes without saying that I'm very sorry Sasha is injured and as everyone else on this thread has expressed, I wish her a speedy recovery.

A few points: About these injuries being related to the COP, I hate to say IMO yes and no, but I can't help the ambivalence. The yes part of me feels that the rather sudden emphasis on three-jump combos and 3/3s are bound to increase injury rates and the COP certainly rewards such combos. However, the no part of me feels that even if the 6.0 system had remained in effect, three-jumb combos and 3/3s would have evolved into elite ladies skating anyway. With skaters such as Meissner, Kostner, and Arakawa able to pull them off consistently, of course they would use them in their arsenal no matter what the judging system. Three-jump combos and 3/3s are going to impress the judges whether it's OBO or COP.

Also, lest we forget, ladies have been attempting or doing 3/3s since the '88 Olympics. I'm just talking Olympics here since the technical elements always seem to ratchet up in an Olympic year. As Yelyoh pointed out, Sasha herself said in her intelligently worded answer to Peter the Dink's hand-grenade question that all the skaters would be up and down throughout the season. Better to have the injury happen now than in February. Hopefully Sasha and Nicks have learned something about how to balance her intensity of training with sufficient rest. And also, perehaps reexamine what they need to work on.

Point 2: Mathman wondered if this injury was a hip pointer. From the description, it doesn't sound like one to me. Hip pointers are contusions to the BACK of the pelvis, where the body is loaded with nerves from the spine and the pelvic bone is also packed with nerves as well as thick with marrow. Mathman is right that football players get them all the time and that hip pointers hurt like a MF.

However, the description of Sasha's injury is described as a contusion to the iliac crest of the pelvis, which is in the front. They are the bones on each side of the front of the pelvis that protrude in very thin people. The front of the pelvis does not have anywhere near the nerve or marrow density that the back of the pelvis does and while I'm sure Sasha's injury is painful--the article also described a cut and a bruise to her oblique abdominal muscle on one side--fortunately the pain would not, IMO, give Sasha the screaming meemies the way a hip pointer would.

Sasha is fortunate that her injury is a contusion and a cut and that no ligaments, tendons, muscles, or bones were actually torn or fractured in the case of bone. Michelle's injury is much more serious because she tore a ligament in her hip. Ligaments, in our mini anatomy lesson , connect bone to bone and are not intended to stretch the way tendons and muscles do. A tear to a ligament needs any number of weeks to heal, depending on the severity, even with the best physical therapy in the world, which I'm sure Michelle is getting. That's just all there is to it.

In Olympic seasons skaters push the outside of the envelope which means we will be seeing more injuries, I'm sure. Just as an example, at the '98 Nagano Olympics, for the men it was the first time the quad was really in the game. Even though Elvis Stojko was the "Quad King," he came to Nagano with a torn groin muscle. For those who want the exact nature, he tore one or more of the adductor muscles on one leg, meaning the muscles that snap the legs together on a jump. The quad is murder on the adductors and off- and on-ice training methods had not yet been honed as to how to get the right level and ratio of strength and flexibility. As those of us who watched the '98 men's final know, Elvis tore the muscle even more during his free skate and the agonizing pain he was in was painfully obvious the moment he finished his FS.

Ilia Kulik also skated the Nagano Olympics with a back injury and another injury (I forget what) but it was good physical therapy, good on- and off-ice training, and a big dose of luck that his injuries were almost fully mended by the time of the Olympics. If the Olympics had been held a week or two earlier, who knows what would have happened?

My point is that injuries, trying to train so you peak at the right time, and the decisions of the skate gods are always more of a factor during Olympic seasons than regular seasons.

To all the skaters who may suffer injuries, sickness (eg, Karen Cadavy), or whatever on the road to the Olympics, may the skate gods be with you. Ideally we want every skater healthy and in top form for the Olympics. Unfortunately that just never seems to happen, which is just another reason why an OGM is so precious.

Sorry, didn't mean to pontificate. My bad.

Rgirl

Mathman said:

I think the more justified criticism of the new Judging System is the one raised explicitely by Johnny Weir, and to a certain extent by Michelle last year. Skaters are so worried about adding up the points that they can't get into the groove aristically and emotionally.

Mathman

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MM, I mentioned the same thing earlier in this thread. What concerns me more than the injuries is that CoP may be limiting the skaters' creativity and artistic expression. When new and inventive spins and spirals have to be scrapped in favor of "racking up points"... well, it's just disheartening. I really found Johnny's latest journal entry to be disturbing. If he is this frustrated, the other skaters must be feeling the same thing. Perhaps this why we seem to be seeing fewer programs that really move us... points over well-rounded programs.

On a lighter note... Doggygirl are you going to Nats? I want to meet you! You seem like TOO much fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whether if it's the COP or the 6.0 system, its still the skaters competing against each other. In any competition, each skater is going to out do the other and up the ante in order to win. If they can't do it in the jumps, they will try it artistically. When do we say enough is enough? If a skater decides not to do new things, he or she is left behind and the competitor who has, wins. If they all got on the ice and did the same things, how do you tell who won or not? I wonder who will be the first skater to say "enough of this" or will they go with flow. Just say skater A is winning all the competitions, how is skater B going to win, do they sit back and wait for skater A to retire or do they try to do new and better things so that they win. I think whether its the COP or 6.0 system, skaters are still going to get injured. If skater A is winning with triples, skater B is going to try triple-triples in order to win.

Take artistry. Kwan was considered to be THE artist. Then came Sasha who many consider now to be THE artist. Both have really advanced the sport and that's not even considering the jumps ( not considering MK's contribution in the jump area earlier in her career). Alisa Czisny (sp.) had me excited about FS after watching her at Campbell's and it had NOTHING to do with the jumps...well, OK the hinged boot has me hopeful. When Kwan and Wier can't do their magic because of the judging system in place than the judging system needs to change.

If skater A is winning with triples, skater B is going to try triple-triples in order to win.

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OR skater B can add a gorgeous Ina Bauer into her triple or 3 turns a la Irina, if all would happen to be equal in their jumps (has that EVER happened?) let the MITF, footwork, spirals, spins, and ability to interpret the music be the deciding factors. Did you guys hear Kurt say "It's not just a skating program, it's an acting program and is supposed to be showing personality."? All of these skaters could add some personality to their programs...let that help decide the winner. Enough wih the jumps work on the other stuff.