Psyching out competitors?

Rgirl · Oct 19, 2005

I used to work with physicians who worked to the New York State Workers Compensation Board and since my boss was friends with the guy who was second in command of the Board, I got to know him to. He was not a physician but rather had a PhD in public health (or something like that) and had been in politics for years.

I say this only because physicians behave very differently in a business relationship than they do in a doctor-patient relationship. I could write a post about what some of these doctors say they do in workers' comp cases that would make your head spin and be so long it would make the GS forum crash. Go to dinner and listen to these docs after they've had a few drinks and I swear on my mother's life that a lot more docs than you want to know say they ALWAYS say the patient is malingering (faking) his/her injury no matter what the facts are. They feel their job is to save the state money, plain and simple. If the patient has a good lawyer, they say they just fold on cross-examination. But woe to the patient who doesn't have a good lawyer or doesna't have a lawyer at all because s/he is under the mistaken impression that these injury/disability cases are about the truth.

You know the saying, "Doctors aren't God; they're just human." That's exactly right. And as humans, doctors lie, cheat, steal, and even murder patients.

And of course patients lie, cheat, steal, and even occasionally murder a doctor. People are people. A white coat and an MD degree doesn't say a thing about your moral character, although most people believe they do.

Of course there are other doctors in the Workers' Comp system who do go by truth. However, in the case of soft tissue injuries, that is, injuries to the muscles, tendons, and ligaments especially in the spine where you can't test the joint for instability like you can the knee, it's all about whether the physician believes the patient. The medical community has made some advances in getting more objective data about back injuries in particular, but subjectivity still plays a big role.

After all, there is really no such thing as an objective test in medicine. Why? Because all tests, from bloodwork to MRIs, are subjectively interpreted.

Sorry to be so negative, but these are the truly big fat unavoidable FACTS.

Rgirl

soogar · Oct 19, 2005

Mathman said:
Soogar, sometimes I think you should sign up for a course on evidence, LOL. Then again, having just seen William Shatner summing up on Boston Legal, what does evidence have to do with anything when you have an unsupported opinion to promote?

Here's the best way to psych out your opponents. Enter everything you can, win everything you enter. That way, when the Olympics roll around, everyone else will be shaking in their boots and you will win in a walk!

MM

I already took a course on Evidence, thank you very much. And circumstantial evidence is the most damning evidence out there.

Mathman · Oct 19, 2005

Rgirl said:
I used to work with physicians who worked to the New York State Workers Compensation Board...

Hey R, I used to work for the NYSWCB, too! Only in my case, I was an actuary whose job it was to set insurance rates.

BTW, the most dangerous job category was "Explosives Manufacturing" and the safest (in terms of loss due to injury as a percentage of salary) was "Corporate Executive."

Mathman

millie · Oct 19, 2005

Red Dog said:
Millie- this post was directed at soogar, not you[/QUOTE

I know that the post was not directed at me. I was trying to answer one of the questions in the post. Sorry, didn't mean to ruffle anybodies feathers.

Piel · Oct 19, 2005

None ruffled here Millie (of course DG is actually wearing the feathers, LOL

). I don't think Michelle or Sasha would lie. I think they would do as MM suggested ....tell Sp$$dy to stick it!

Rgirl I'm in shock........not WC :rofl:

1

mzheng · Oct 19, 2005

soogar said:
What exactly are they going to prove? Sasha doesn't need to compete in the GP to pull the big scores at the Olympics. She has made her reputation through her years of competing. Do you think competing at SA for an easy win is going to do anything for Sasha at this point in her career? Kwan is a different story as she has been slipping in the standings over the past few years, however Michelle hasn't felt the need to compete the GP for the past two years so why would this year be any different for her?

.

I can understand your reasoning for Sasha, at least she got her points down for her LP in Campbell. But I don't understand your reasoning for Kwan. If anything she(MK) she took lesson from last season, she'd know it is crucial for her to compete more under CoP this season. By withdrawing from Campbell's and SA, if your reasoning is applied to her she'll skip CoC as well (by fake the injury), then she basically lost all her chances to have her program out being scored under CoP before Nationals.

Hope both Sasha and Michelle get well soon. Otherwise I suspect the TV rating will be down.

mzheng · Oct 19, 2005

realistic51 said:
Could you please tell me where this doctor is because mine won't do that. I mean, seriously. I've never had a doctor who would excuse me from work and/or school if he thought there was a chance I could do just fine or was not contagious. I've had sciatica nerve problems and back problems for years. I am very rarely given a note from my doctor saying I can't work. However, he will give instructions to my employer on what I can/cannot do for however long it takes the problem to work itself out. And if I'm sick, I'd best be running a fever.
!

(not that I laugh at your pain.)

hockeyfan228 · Oct 19, 2005

When the top skaters don't compete, especially since the optional third event was dropped for seeded skaters, it gives other skaters the opportunity to be seen in a context without them, and to be appreciated on their own merits, not comparatively. Regardless of the scores that the Canadian judges gave her at Nationals, I don't think that Joannie Rochette would have been considered such a strong contender in Moscow -- which she was until she imploded -- or that Susanna Poykio, for example, would have been take as seriously at Worlds if she hadn't done well in the GP. It also puts the next level of skaters in a pressure situation, which they could face in the Olympics, if they make it to the final group. For example, a fifth place for Onda or Sebestyen or Sokolova in Skate America might not have been considered too bad by international judges (and for Onda, by the Japanese Federation) if Kwan and Cohen had competed, where the pressure was to compete for bronze, but the same placement at SA without MK or SC could be a setback for their Olympics chances, unless they could, like Lindemann did last year after a disastrous GP, podium at Euros.

GPF might not be important for Kwan and Cohen in terms of exposure or money, although to have Kwan not compete at all under CoP before the Olympics isn't ideal by any means, but it likely means that two other Ladies will be in GPF, close to Euros and the Olympics, and that could mean the difference between being in the final group at Olys and/or a dark horse medal contender, or not.

Mathman · Oct 19, 2005

Great post, Hockeyfan!

waxel · Oct 19, 2005

Mentioning the GPF brings up an interesting point. If Michelle or Sasha WERE to compete in one GP event and won, this would mean 12 points. And we've seen in the past that when the smoke clears.... there are often skaters who make the final with only 12 points (or less in some cases). With the wonky timing of the final, I think we may see them both skip the entire GP. Probably not a major issue for Sasha, but I agree with other observations that Michelle needs the CoP experience.

curious · Oct 19, 2005

michell is the one in deep trouble not sasha. I don't see michell going all the way to china to finish third. it won't help her cause with the judges,but who knows. michell hasn't made the smartest decisions since 2001 :biggrin:

R.D. · Oct 19, 2005

I think at this point it would be a great time to raise the question: How many competitions is too much? It's good to compete but when does one start to burn out? Probably depends on the skater. In other words (I'm talking mainly about Cohen and not Kwan) is missing an event (Not the injury) actually a blessing in disguise? It's not that I think (or don't think) this, I would just like to raise this question.

R.D. · Oct 19, 2005

curious said:
michell is the one in deep trouble not sasha. I don't see michell going all the way to china to finish third. it won't help her cause with the judges,but who knows. michell hasn't made the smartest decisions since 2001

I dunno- I think they both could be in trouble (esp. Kwan) if they don't get enough experience before the major comps.

I also don't see Kwan going to China. I think it's more likely we'll see Cohen at TEB (although she might skip that too) than we'll see Kwan at COC.

About faking injuries- I don't know. If one REALLY wanted to skip a competition, I agree with whatever poster said it would make more sense to actually do SA and then skip the overseas GP event. That's another good reason to think they are really injured, because all the "justifications" for them faking the injury so far don't make sense to me.

pollyls · Oct 19, 2005

soogar said:
I think both of these girls are using what they can to pull out of the GP and save their legs for the Olympics while their competitors (who need the money) slog on in the GP and wear themselves out.

I don't agree. Placement depends so much upon getting your program in front of judges' eyes, especially in an Olympic year, that I don't think even the front-runners would give up a chance to do that.

VINLUVSKWAN · Oct 19, 2005

Michelle's and Sasha's skipping last year's Grand Prix would have tainted their credibility MORE than this season b/c they are actually OFFICIALLY injured this season (I don't know about Sasha, her time of withdrawal sounds suspect when John Nicks said she was experiencing pain Wed., when the press release said she was injured after falling on a toe loop Thursday). Go figure.

mzheng · Oct 19, 2005

Red Dog said:
I think at this point it would be a great time to raise the question: How many competitions is too much? It's good to compete but when does one start to burn out? Probably depends on the skater. In other words (I'm talking mainly about Cohen and not Kwan) is missing an event (Not the injury) actually a blessing in disguise? It's not that I think (or don't think) this, I would just like to raise this question.

Now, why Cohen pull out from competetion that question is raised "How many competitions is too much." ? "When it's good to compete but when does one start to burn out?" ? ....... How many full seasons GPs had Cohen been doing before she started to pull out? How many full seasons GPs had Kwan been doing before she started to pull out? When Kwan got most acusations from same subset of posters when she pulled out from GPs? Are we talking about double standard here?.....By logical should this question be raised when Kwan's pull out than any other US skaters? She is the one at the scene longest?

That said, it is still in my blieve that skaters should have RIGHT to decided what competetion they chose to be in based on best interest to their own skating, injury or not.......In any other sports the atheletes have the choice to decide what competetion they want to be in what not (unless qualifying needed). Why shouldn't in Figure Skating? And so many here were screaming loud Figure Skating is a sport, then why should it be treated differently than other sports?

attyfan · Oct 19, 2005

Red Dog said:
I think at this point it would be a great time to raise the question: How many competitions is too much? It's good to compete but when does one start to burn out? Probably depends on the skater. In other words (I'm talking mainly about Cohen and not Kwan) is missing an event (Not the injury) actually a blessing in disguise? It's not that I think (or don't think) this, I would just like to raise this question.

I also think that scheduling and control are also issues. I think, for example, that skaters and federations should be able to "re-arrange" appearances, so (for example) arrangements could be made to allow Michelle -- who may not be well enough to compete at CoC -- to skate at CoR and NHK -- when she would be ready. I also think that the ISU would do themselves -- and the skaters -- a big favor if they started the GP events earlier (say, early September), and allowed more time between them, so things like the strain of travel would be reduced.

Mathman · Oct 19, 2005

curious said:
michell is the one in deep trouble not sasha:

The one thing Michelle does not have is trouble, LOL.

She will either skate in the Grand Prix or she won't. She will either go to the Olympics or not. Either she will either win a medal or she won't. :rock:

MM

Bijoux · Oct 19, 2005

For anyone with spinal/back/soft tissue problems

There is a muscle testing specialty, mostly used by chiros. It's called applied kinesiology. It's impossible to malinger. Difficult to find these speciaalists in all but major cities. Here's hoping they all get well.

gezando · Oct 19, 2005

millie said:
. With injuries to the muscles, it sometimes hard for the doctor to detect it and they take the word of the patient that he or she is experiencing pain.

Just off the top of my head a simple blood test for total CK, and a CK MM (creatine kinase MM fraction) can easiy detect muscle injuries, IMO, there is not that much subjective interpretation for the quantitaion for total CK, and the electrophoresis to isolate the MM isozyme. I can't say much about the science and technology back in the dark ages when MM was an actuary, but IMO the science and technology today provide accurate results to blood tests like CK with good sensitivity and specificity.

Psyching out competitors?

Rgirl

soogar

Mathman

millie

Piel

On Edge

mzheng

mzheng

hockeyfan228

Mathman

waxel

curious

R.D.

R.D.

pollyls

VINLUVSKWAN

mzheng

attyfan

Custom Title

Mathman

Bijoux

Match Penalty

gezando

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