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swannanoa54

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
I heard nothing from Tim that sounded like complaining about the extra hour. I didn't get that tone in his voice.

And I didn't get even talking to Tara Lipinski for her opinion.

The one thing that really made me wonder about the new judging system was this :

So skaters are now filling their routines with as many steps, spins and spirals as they can to rack up the points. But more moves mean more wear and tear on the body and more time on the ice practicing.

And while there are naysayers that the new judging system isn't causing more injuries, when you look at it in the aspect of "racking up points", there is more wear and tear on the bodies of the skaters than before.

And Tara Lipinski, 1998 Olympic gold medalist, agreed. "For me, the new scoring system was never in place, and I was still getting injured," she said. "Other skaters were getting injured."

So someone remind me what other skaters "getting injured" when Tara skated under the 6.0 system. I actually thought the news segment was interesting. And I enjoyed the clips of Sasha and Michelle and Evan. So that was cool.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
And I didn't get even talking to Tara Lipinski for her opinion.

When you think about what she put herself through, I don't think it was TOTALLY out of place to ask her. A bit random, yes, but not unreasonable.
 

millie

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2004
realistic51 said:
And I didn't get even talking to Tara Lipinski for her opinion

So someone remind me what other skaters "getting injured" when Tara skated under the 6.0 system.
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I think that Tara's opinion matters, after all she was an Olympian that won a gold metal in figure skating-thats why her opinion matters. It doesn't matter who else got injured under the 6.0 system-Tara herself got injured and that's factual.
 

attyfan

Custom Title
Medalist
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Some of the other skaters forced into retirement by injuries sustained during 6.0 system:

Naomi Nari Nam
Deanna Stellato
Elizabeth Kwon
Alexei Yagudin (skating exacerbated a congenital hip problem)

I'm more worried about what should be done to protect the kids like the first 3 listed because they were forced out of skating before they became "big names". Yags and Lipinski lived out their dreams before being forced. Nam, Stellato and Kwon didn't even get that much -- they just got permanently injured. IMO, the ISU (who can get all kinds of data from all the federations) should get together some medical professionals and review all these injuries to determine what, if anything, can be done. Is it the jumps -- and if so, is it any jump in particular? (the back flip was banned as too risky) Is it bending the body into a pretzel -- that happened before CoP, but it is more common now?
 
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R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
But this is interesting. Some skaters make it all the way to the top before they get their first major injury, while yet others are taken out long before that. Does it have to do with the way one trains? I believe so. Otherwise you wouldn't see any top skaters today (or all the top skaters would be doing double jumps).

I think more should be done to make (figure) skating safer (and I think this lies in development of new skating boots, crash courses in safe practice habits, etc.)
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
realistic51 said:
So someone remind me what other skaters "getting injured" when Tara skated under the 6.0 system. I actually thought the news segment was interesting. And I enjoyed the clips of Sasha and Michelle and Evan. So that was cool.

Urmanov, Plush, Yagudin, Klimkin (he suffered numerous injuries before COP fully adopted), Trenary, Midori Ito (broke her leg in '86 doing a quad), Tiffany Chin, Lucinda Ruh and the list goes on. There have always been injuries in skating and there will continue to be injuries. It's a sport and that's what happens.
 

kyla2

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
It's Relevant

The ABC report is quite relevant in my opinion. Whether you want to think the new system is promoting injuries or not, there is no question that in the past 10 years more skaters are getting injured. It isn't the water they're drinking either. It's the way the sport is evolving and the demands of the system. This is not a good thing and Christine Brennan is not wrong in asserting that the new CoP system is making a bad situation, worse.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
kyla2 said:
The ABC report is quite relevant in my opinion. Whether you want to think the new system is promoting injuries or not, there is no question that in the past 10 years more skaters are getting injured. It isn't the water they're drinking either. It's the way the sport is evolving and the demands of the system. This is not a good thing and Christine Brennan is not wrong in asserting that the new CoP system is making a bad situation, worse.

It's because the skaters are doing more triples and triple-triples which were highly valued under BOTH systems.

Quite frankly, athletes get injured in lots of sports and skating injuries are rather tame compared to the injuries suffered in gymnastics and football. Dancers experience a lot of injuries (and it seems like they experience more injuries than skaters) as well.

Now the skaters need to actually do something in their programs besides crossovers and jumps and the system actually values the skater who can do everything well (spins, jumps, footwork etc).
 

swannanoa54

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
I know other skaters have been injured in figure skating. I asked what other skaters got injured WHEN Tara was skating. I don't believe Ito belongs in that group or Yagudin or Plushenko. And while Tara was an OGM, at this time under a new judging system, I don't think her opinion matters about injuries under the new judging system. She is not part of that. But that's just me.

I also think, soogar, that jumps were a lot of the problem under the 6.0 system. The push to go to quads or 3/3s resulted in tons of injuries on both sides. Now there are different injuries based on the push to have an overall program crammed full of "tricks" that, in some programs, are just too much. I understand when someone says there are no "rest" spots under the new judging system. And maybe that is the problem. Athletes push their bodies all the time. But even tennis players and football players get to rest their bodies. In figure skating I don't see that anymore. Ok, I know what I mean, but I think my thoughts are going south again.:laugh:

millie, I didn't say what Tara said about her injury wasn't factual. I said I don't remember anyone else, at the time she was skating, being injured. Nor do I remember her being that injured that she couldn't skate to win OGM or Worlds or Nationals.
 
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Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Injuries are a part of any sport. Some sports have more injuries than some others. Athletes are always pushing themselves to do more things and that causes injuries. Skaters that were injured before the COP (not necessarily career ending): Urmanov, Stojko, Abt, Klimkin, Yagudin, Plushenko, Honda, Galindo, Goebel, Petrenko, Weir- among the better known ones. Among ladies- Naomi Nari Nam (career ending), Sasha missed the 2001 season), Michelle had an injury in 1998 that made it difficult for her to do the triple toe, Angela, Bebe Liang, Tara, Midori (ankle problems), Trenary, and so on. In ice dance & pairs- Krylova (ended her eligible career), Berezhnaya (miraculous recovery), Gordeeva (missed a year after the 88 worlds due to injury), Petrova (ankle injury), Xue Shen, Hongbo Zhao, Sikharulidze, and so on.

I find it hard to believe that the COP is causing more injuries. If we are seeing more injuries it is because skaters are challenging themselves to do harder things- jumps and other things.
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Christine Brennan is a pot-stirrer. It's her style as a sports writer who specializes in figure skating. The more controversy in the sport, the more there is for her to write about. She has a vested interest in keeping figure skating controversial.

Of course she may truly believe the COP is causing a "rash" of injuries and in any case, Brennan is entitled to her opinion. But that's all anybody has on this subject now and for the forseeable future: opinion. Last winter I compared the number of empirical studies on figure skating injuries compared to the number of studies on dance injuries. There are far more studies on dance injuries than there are on figure skating injuries. I don't think it's because dance has more injuries per relative number of participants, though that's JMO because there was no study comparing the number of skating injuries to the number of dance injuries. My point is that the subject of injuries in figure skating hasn't been studied nearly as long or as much as what might be described as the similar activity of theatrical dance.

Also, at the '92 Lillehammer Olympics, all the medalists in the ladies singles division had either at least one full fall or, in Kristi's case, an awkward step-out hand-down on a 3sal in the middle of her program. She opened her program with a 3Lutz/3toe and Midori Ito attempted the 3Axel twice, falling the first time and nailing it at least three minutes into her program. After the competition, there was an article in the New York Times bemoaning, "Are triple jumps ruining ladies figure skating?" Because none of the women had skated an absolutely clean LP, the writer (I forget who; wasn't Brennan), "Woe is me! I've never seen so many falls in a ladies Olympic figure skating competition. This is terrible. Women just aren't meant to jump like this."

Well, of course she'd never seen so many falls in a ladies Olympic figure skating competition; in '88 you could still throw in a double on something besides the Axel and not in a combo and be competitive. Kat Witt's "Carmen" FS had very weak technical content. Even Witt admits to thinking, as she lay "dead" on the ice, "Did I do enough technically?" IIRC, Liz Manley actually won the FS but Witt had such a big lead built up in the figures portion of the competition (no SP in '88) that Witt won the gold, Manley the silver, and Debi Thomas, who clearly gave up on her performance after not completing her opening 3/3, the bronze.

So every time there's a big ratcheting up of the technical difficulty in any division of figure skating, virtually always during an Olympic year, and skaters tend to have an unusually high number of injuries. It's not unusual in an Olympic year, though most skaters want to keep their injuries quiet, so other skaters don't feel a psychological advantage over them and they can at least behave confidently if they can compete; Kulik never talked about his injuries until after Nagano, but he didn't have to pull out of any high profile competitions and answer the press. In the case of Michelle and Sasha, all US eyes are on them as well as figure skating eyes the world over, they both had to pull out out of the first major competition of the season, so they HAVE to face the media, many of whom are doing the usual, "The sky is falling!"

Also, if we see a lot of falls or wonky landings in Turin, the sky will be faling again for many. Sports such as gymnastics and figure skating are not like track and field, where OGMs and world records move along in 1000ths of a second, 1/8ths of an inch, very, very small increments--except for Bob Beaman's long jump in the '70s, which was a glorious freak of nature.

At the 2010 Olympics ("The Year We Make Contact"--sorry, bad "2001" joke), IMO all the things we're talking about re the COP, artistry in programs, 3/3s, too many "jumps, steps, and spins," etc. will be worked out, for better or worse. The sport will continue evolving, which does not necessarily mean more rotations on the jumps because there is a biomechanical and physiological limit even among those with bodies built for axial rotation; but skaters, coaches, federations, judges, the ISU, and fans will all be part of the soup that figure skating becomes--talking singles and pairs mostly, but also ice dance.

Meanwhile, it's Christine Brennan's job to sell papers. :)

Rgirl
 

Aria

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 3, 2003
realistic51 said:
I know other skaters have been injured in figure skating. I asked what other skaters got injured WHEN Tara was skating...

I said I don't remember anyone else, at the time she was skating, being injured. Nor do I remember her being that injured that she couldn't skate to win OGM or Worlds or Nationals.
The most mememorable- Elvis skating so injured for the Olympic silver medal that he could barely walk and limped off the ice afterwards. That was '98- the same Olympics Tara won her gold.

Michelle suffered her toe injury that same '97-'98 season.

Nicole Bobek withdrew from '96 Nationals due to injury, which, IMO, helped Tara win her first Senior Nationals medal- bronze.

And someone else mentioned Ilia. I didn't know or had forgotten that he had been injured.
 

Aria

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 3, 2003
soogar said:
There have always been injuries in skating and there will continue to be injuries. It's a sport and that's what happens.

I started watching skating in '68 and took lessons in '72-'74. I remember hearing little to nothing about injuries among elite skaters or at the rink. Maybe it was because of less media coverage, or skaters and their teams just keeping their problems to themselves. At the time, I was in total shock when Randy Gardiner had to withdraw from the '80 Olympics, because I couldn't recall ever having seen any skater have to withdraw from a competition due to injury.

soogar said:
It's because the skaters are doing more triples and triple-triples which were highly valued under BOTH systems.

Right. I noticed a marked increase in injuries starting in the '90s after figures were dropped, and more skaters started going for more difficult jumps on a more regular basis-- men- the quads and ladies- 3-3s (especially those with a 3loop at the end, which seem to cause hip injuries).

Instead of blaming CoP for injuries, I think Brennan would have a better argument for blaming the end of figures and/ or the increase in jump difficulty. (Does anyone remember Brennan's positions on those issues?)

Randy G. is the first skater I remember with a groin/ hip injury. I don't remember any groin/ hip injuries in the '80s (correct me, if there were). But, since just the late '90s, IIRC, the following have had groin or hip injuries:
  1. Elvis
  2. Tara
    (ultimately career ending)
  3. Yagudin
  4. Michelle
  5. Sasha
  6. Deanna Stellato
    (career ending)
  7. Elizabeth Kwon
    (Not 100% sure it was hip-related, but whatever it was, it was career ending.)
  8. Naomi Nari Nam
    (BTW, someone posted her's as career ending. While it ended her singles career, she will be competing in pairs at Sectionals and perhaps Nationals this season.)

Other skaters with hip/ groin injuries I have forgotten?

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember career ending injuries until the ones listed above. Injured skaters before the '90s, like Randy and Tiffany Chin, were at least able to return to skate pro.
 
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boggartlaura

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
Galindo. Abt. Honda. Plush. Browning. Eldredge. Just some more skaters who got injured pre-CoP.

And Cohen herself had a serious injury under 6.0.
 
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Aria

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 3, 2003
Rgirl said:
Also, at the '92 Lillehammer Olympics, all the medalists in the ladies singles division had either at least one full fall or, in Kristi's case, an awkward step-out hand-down on a 3sal in the middle of her program. She opened her program with a 3Lutz/3toe and Midori Ito attempted the 3Axel twice, falling the first time and nailing it at least three minutes into her program. After the competition, there was an article in the New York Times bemoaning, "Are triple jumps ruining ladies figure skating?" Because none of the women had skated an absolutely clean LP, the writer (I forget who; wasn't Brennan), "Woe is me! I've never seen so many falls in a ladies Olympic figure skating competition. This is terrible. Women just aren't meant to jump like this."

Well, of course she'd never seen so many falls in a ladies Olympic figure skating competition; in '88 you could still throw in a double on something besides the Axel and not in a combo and be competitive.

While I do think some women can do most triple jumps well, I do agree with the writer that ladies skating from the early to mid '90s had way too many splatfests that I had to suffer through. I'd much rather see skaters have clean, neater skates with a lower degree of difficulty, than see skaters skate more difficult programs that are splat-ridden and/ or sloppy.

Kat Witt's "Carmen" FS had very weak technical content. Even Witt admits to thinking, as she lay "dead" on the ice, "Did I do enough technically?" IIRC, Liz Manley actually won the FS but Witt had such a big lead built up in the figures portion of the competition (no SP in '88) that Witt won the gold, Manley the silver, and Debi Thomas, who clearly gave up on her performance after not completing her opening 3/3, the bronze.

There were SPs in '88. SPs started in 1973 to help excellent free skate, but figures challenged skaters like Janet Lynn.

So every time there's a big ratcheting up of the technical difficulty in any division of figure skating, virtually always during an Olympic year, and skaters tend to have an unusually high number of injuries. It's not unusual in an Olympic year, though most skaters want to keep their injuries quiet, so other skaters don't feel a psychological advantage over them and they can at least behave confidently if they can compete; Kulik never talked about his injuries until after Nagano, but he didn't have to pull out of any high profile competitions and answer the press.

Before the '90s, a high number of injuries during an Olympic year or any other year was unusual. Also, Elizabeth, Naomi, and Deanna weren't preparing for the Olympics when they sustained their career or near career ending injuries.
 

cianni

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Important Point

When all is said and done it may well be the last skater standing will win the OGM. Remember speed skating in 2002. I agree I found the skating thur. even since I was there BORINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. Disaka was the only skater who didnt look and feel like a medal calculator on the ice. The skaters were not relating to the music nor did they have any expression or personality coming out to the audience. The winner was the only skater who generated any real reaction from the audience. Maybe there is some truth that COP is failing to help keep interest in the sport. JMO from what I saw.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, I REALLY didn't "miss" much. Like I said before, I would have been really surprised to learn something new from this report. We all know about it, but in order for it to make mainstream news like that, it HAS to be a big deal. Two of our medal contenders are currently out of the race right now (as well as others which I don't think were mentioned), and from an American's point of view, this would affect the Olympics.

Does anybody else know if any of the other networks (mainly NBC, since they have the olympics) have reported or mentioned this issue? or is it just ABC? I remember after the Skate America fall last year, it made NBC and ABC evening and morning news (don't know about CBS), and even got a mention during our local news segment.

But I think such a story is going to have the opposite effect: it might drum up interest in skating (which I think is exactly what ABC wants- anyone know if they advertised Skate America during their news broadcast? :biggrin: ) because scandal is what gets people interested, it seems. (Except when it happens DURING the Olympics. :laugh: )
 
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