On World News Tonight, ABC

attyfan · Oct 22, 2005

Red Dog said:
... But I think such a story is going to have the opposite effect: it might drum up interest in skating (which I think is exactly what ABC wants- anyone know if they advertised Skate America during their news broadcast? ) because scandal is what gets people interested, it seems. (Except when it happens DURING the Olympics. )

At least in So. Calif., they did not advertise Skate America. Whether the scandal gets people interested in skating or not, however, doesn't depend on when it happens, but on what kind of scandal it is. Let a large enough audience (which is something that doesn't happen outside of Oly) feel that the judges cheated, and the sport will be hurt, even if (by some fluke) it did not happen at Olys; let a skater get whacked, and people will watch, no matter where it happened.

kyla2 · Oct 22, 2005

Skating Issues

There is such a thing as anectdotal data and this report is based primarily on this type of data. It doesn't make it less reliable. This is not just about opinion as much as some of us would like to think so. It's about adding difficulty and stress to the human body in an already difficult sport. Yes, there were injuries under the 6.0 system but they were fewer and far between, and the skaters weren't required to to do the Grand Prix Series until relatively recently. So add up the number of triples needed to be competitive, the increased number of combination jumps, the added difficulty being needed in spins, spirals, laybacks and in-betweens under CoP, AND then add in the number of hours needed to train for these elements under CoP, AND THEN add in the Grand Prix Series and you have a recipe for disaster. Christine Brennan is not a hack. She is more knowledgable about figure skating then most of us who post on this site. Tim is actually out there training as a competitor. He is not whining. He is stating the facts. If I had a child who wanted to skate, it would be over my dead body. The sport of figure skating, which used to be so much more than a sport, is trying to re-define itself at considerable risk to its participants.

emma · Oct 22, 2005

Kyla2...I'm sorry if i'm misunderstanding you, but how did CoP change the number of triples one needs to be competitive? I think I understand that you are saying CoP creates a situation in which you might (i underscore might) have to be good at everything: jumps, spins, footwork, mitf etc., so you have to practice all of them hard and do them, so that --we assume--must be hard on the body and be, therefore, causing injury. If this isn't wan't you are saying, forgive me. IF it is what you are saying then I'll just say I'm not so sure, and I'm not willing to assume that having to be more well rounded is harder on the body, and I don't believe CoP ups the jump ante automatically.

Also, soooo many skaters sustained injury during that post-figures pre-CoP period that without the studies Rgirl eludes to, I don't know how we can compare (yet) the two systems (6 and CoP) in terms of injuries, except anecdotally, and since there were so many injuries under 6, I'm not blaming CoP (yet). I suspect the problems that 6 without figures with current boot technology creates is just continuing in the present...but that is literally my opinion, one I make based on the anecdotal evidence I have read on this and other boards. My problem with
Brennan is that she presents some anecdotal evidence while completely ignoring a ton of other evidence that she is, of course, aware of. But, like Rgirl, I agree that she is totally entitled to her opinion, and is entitled not only to her feelings about CoP but her presentation of those feelings...i just happen to totally disagree with her.

tharrtell · Oct 22, 2005

Thanks for the download, RD. Typical, overly-dramatized news story. Is Tara still bitter over '98? I suffered. I was injured. It's no harder today ... I could be reading something that isn't there, but I felt a waahh

boggartlaura · Oct 22, 2005

kyla2 said:
Christine Brennan is not a hack. .

R.D. · Oct 22, 2005

I notice Brennan is always a heavy target for skating fans because of her controversial opinions/reports. But I think that's part of the job. She can stir things up, that's for sure.

Off topic a little, when did she suddenly start doing video reports? I thought she was just a column writer for USA Today.

Piel · Oct 22, 2005

RD last year she reported backstage/K&C at Nationals, IIRC?

Linny · Oct 22, 2005

Sasha and Michelle

Both missed the GP last year... so what's changed?
Linny

CDMM1991 · Oct 22, 2005

Linny said:
Both missed the GP last year... so what's changed?
Linny

IT'S AN OLYMPIC SEASON.

R.D. · Oct 22, 2005

Piel said:
RD last year she reported backstage/K&C at Nationals, IIRC?

Yes, she did...but was this her first time? Basically, why is she even on camera in the first place? (I don't think newspaper reporters typically give interviews/reports on camera, but I may be wrong.)

Rgirl · Oct 22, 2005

Aria said:
While I do think some women can do most triple jumps well, I do agree with the writer that ladies skating from the early to mid '90s had way too many splatfests that I had to suffer through. I'd much rather see skaters have clean, neater skates with a lower degree of difficulty, than see skaters skate more difficult programs that are splat-ridden and/ or sloppy.

There were SPs in '88. SPs started in 1973 to help excellent free skate, but figures challenged skaters like Janet Lynn.

Before the '90s, a high number of injuries during an Olympic year or any other year was unusual. Also, Elizabeth, Naomi, and Deanna weren't preparing for the Olympics when they sustained their career or near career ending injuries.

Thanks for your comments and correction, Aria. My bad again about when the SP was instated--and, dang, I knew that one and even remember watching poor Janet fall twice during the first year they had the SP, which, as you said, was included to reduce the impact of figures--I've heard it said the ISU even had Janet Lynn in mind when they made the change--and have World champs such as Trixie Shuba, who made the average viewer go, "That skater won?! I just don't get this sport."

And obviously I just shouldn't let my memory out of the house by itself. :frown2: :scratch: :laugh:

Rgirl

julietvalcouer · Oct 22, 2005

Uh, other sports have injuries, but do they really have so many stress-related injuries on, in a lot of cases, abnormally young atheletes? Except gymnastics, womens' in particular, which if anything is probably worse than skating--at least most female skaters do look like they actually have enough body fat to go through puberty before they're twenty. Sure, a football or soccer player might break an ankle--but usually it's an unusal high-impact trauma, not a bone finally going because it's been overstressed over and over and this was just one fall too many, or spinal stress from impact pounding. I was thinking the other day--has anyone done bone studies on skaters who started doing doubles and triples when they were nine or ten or eleven, long before the majority of bone fusion is done? I'd love to see radiographs. (Betcha a lot of the gymnasts have stress rings on their long bones, like child-age starvation victims get.)

Not to mention that, shy of paralysis or crippling arthritis, most other atheletes can come back next year. A baseball player isn't going to be out of a job because he has to take two months off for a muscle tear. A skater might as well drop dead.

Actually I do know one sport--it's like horse racing. For the horses. Horses break down as two year olds or manage to get to the Triple Crown races and then are retired immediately so they won't permanently cripple themselves.

swannanoa54 · Oct 22, 2005

I've seen Christine Brennan reporting on television for years now. I know that she did the Olys in 2002 and several other skating events. Yep, she does do TV. :laugh:

kyla2 · Oct 22, 2005

Emma

Thanks for your thoughtful (and courteous-thank you) response. I think we will have to wait a few more years to see who is right about the injuries in figure skating. Personally, I think the evidence is in, and worse, it's accumulating. But it won't be truly meaningful for another few years. I really do think that the criteria have changed to such a degree that it's the components of the performance that matter and not the overall performance. Sadly, this means everyone is trying to max out on level 4's and the overall performances are suffering and so are the skater's joints, muscles, ligaments and tendons. I am a nurse and have some understanding of what repeated pounding and stressing of joints can do. The sport has changed to the point that I think it will reduce longevity (how long can skaters keep this up?) and the quality of the performances. I don't think Brennan is wrong at all, but prescient.

emma · Oct 23, 2005

Well, I hope for the skaters sake that more injuries do not keep coming...here's hoping the hinged boot helps !?!

Rgirl · Oct 23, 2005

And here's hoping sports medicine physicians and researchers take a greater interest in studying the number and possible causes of figure skating injuries.

At PubMed, the online site for medical research, when you use the search criteria "figure skating injuries" you get abstracts* from 22 studies going back to 1979.

If you use the search criteria "dance injuries" you get abstracts from 329 studies going back to 1965.

So, as you can see, there's quite a descrpancy between these two areas in terms of the amount of research that has been conducted in their respective injuries. Nothing against research on dance injuries, the greater number of which relative to figure skating I suspect has to do with modern dance and to a lesser extent ballet being major fields of both undergraduate and gradute study in universities; however, clearly before we start making off-the-cuff statements about how skating injuries have increased or what causes skating injuries, a great deal more research needs to be done.

One thing about doing research on something clinical, such as injuries, is you may go in thinking, "It's obvious there's a cause and effect relationship between [for example] the number of triple jumps skaters practice every day and the number of injuries they get" and often come out with results that completely contradict what you expected to get.

The good thing is that when one gets unexpected results, it forces one to think "outside the box" and hone one's study design and research criteria in order to learn more about the true nature of the hypothesis.

But at least there are 22 studies on figure skating injuries. :clap:

Rgirl

*Some abstracts are not available for reading online; however, the publication information is listed so the study can be searched for in a medical library.

Doggygirl · Oct 23, 2005

soogar said:
Urmanov, Plush, Yagudin, Klimkin (he suffered numerous injuries before COP fully adopted), Trenary, Midori Ito (broke her leg in '86 doing a quad), Tiffany Chin, Lucinda Ruh and the list goes on. There have always been injuries in skating and there will continue to be injuries. It's a sport and that's what happens.

And let us not forget the current Men's World Champion.

DG

orchid · Oct 23, 2005

CzarinaAnya said:
Thanks for the info!

Is that usually on at 6:00 PM, Central time?

6:30PM EST Calculate for your time zone.

R.D. · Oct 23, 2005

You really have to check your local listings for stuff like this because usually local stations have their own schedule (for example, here in Maryland the CBS Evening News comes on 30 min. later than ABC and NBC News).

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