Another New Sasha Journal 10/22/05

Another new journal. http://www.sashacohen.com/journal.shtm

She talks about the spitting incident and also money that the skaters make. She also says that a skater has 6-7 years or there abouts to make money.

Athletes spit all the time LOL, :scratch: concern about whether the miked or cameras are around or not.

Her comments about skaters making money I find somewhat interesting. Once again, skaters don't often talk about this kind of stuff.

Re. the incident I believe she thought the TV broadcasters would edit that out, but since they didn't laugh: ) she probably felt the need to explain it. If it wasn't shown I guarantee you she wouldn't have said a word about it.

I thought, when Sasha spit, that she first looked around for a bucket or container to spit in, not to spit on the floor. And then she looked at Nicks, he made a remark, and she spit. I kinda thought it was funny even if I think spitting is gross no matter what. It's why I have a hard time watching baseball. It just gags me. But I didn't think anymore of it. I just thought the camera caught her in a funny moment you don't often see in figure skating.

realistic51 said:

I thought, when Sasha spit, that she first looked around for a bucket or container to spit in, not to spit on the floor. And then she looked at Nicks, he made a remark, and she spit. I kinda thought it was funny even if I think spitting is gross no matter what. It's why I have a hard time watching baseball. It just gags me. But I didn't think anymore of it. I just thought the camera caught her in a funny moment you don't often see in figure skating.

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She was looking for something to spit into but their wasn't anything nearby so she spit on the floor. The look she gave him was hilarious. She did what he said and didn't drink too much. Why do I get the feeling that Mr. Nicks will be carrying around a spittoon with Sasha's name on it.

Athletes spit a lot, and the cameras caught them too, golfers, swimmers, baseball players, even skaters, didn't Yags spit too. I don't remember these athletes tried to explain though. OTOH,ice princesses would try to explain, and Cohen IMO is no different from any other ice princess. She usually gives the same answers like any other ice princess when interviewed, and tries to explain something that does not need explanation just like any other ice princess would do.

Actually Cohen is not the only skater who talks about money matters, IIRC Kristi, Yuka, talked about the topic, and they don't even have an online journal. Jenny Kirk talked about money, and budget in a fluff piece last year.

and Cohen IMO is no different from any other ice princess. She usually gives the same answers like any other ice princess when interviewed, and tries to explain something that does not need explanation just like any other ice princess would do.

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Actually, my impression is that ice princesses do the exact OPPOSITE. They smile all the time and try to give off the impression that they're this sweet little angel (hmm), and try to stifle any ambitions they may have of winning. Cohen definitely LOOKS the part, but IMO she doesn't play it.

Red Dog said:

Ice princesses smile all the time and try to give off the impression that they're this sweet little angel (hmm), and try to stifle any ambitions they may have of winning. Cohen definitely LOOKS the part, but IMO she doesn't play it.

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How many times have you seen an athlete spit on camera, Tiger Woods, female swimmers, etc did they ever try to explain something that does not need explanation? IMO only ice princesses who are concerned about their image will do such a thing.

Peggy Flemming is the first original ice princess, and lookikng the part is a huge ingredient of the ice princess image. One ice princess' answer to a question during an interview sound the same as the other. Lets see how Cohen stiffle (or not) her ambition after jr world. She said she was so glad that she skated the best for herself. After every nationals, she said she will go back and work on things for worlds or olympics. Right after she switched to Robin, she said the experience was FUN, FUN, FUN, and more FUN. I don't doubt that Cohen had mentioned that she had ambitions maybe once or twice (I can't remember though, I will take your word for it), but probably 9 out of 10 times she gives the same answer, she skates the best for herself, she is having fun etc Therefore IMO, Cohen plays the ice princess part like any other ice princess, and Cohen plahys it very well.

Now Sarah Hughes has given more interviews about her ambition. She said whenever she steps on the ice, she skates to win, not for second. Right after sp at olys 02, (she was 4th) but she thought her sp deserved some 6.0s. How is that for not being an ice princess.

Maybe two years ago I would have agreed with you, as she did go through a phase where she gave the "same old" standard answers "I just want to skate my best", etc. But before that, and now, she's been a lot more outspoken about what she wants to achieve. In a world full of "ice princesses", this is not something that you see every day, unlike other sports.

I'm not going to argue pointlessly with you, as I've learned that we're never going to get anywhere. But I will just say that I don't agree with what you are saying.

I can tell Cohen had a look of embarassment after that "episode". It's even funnier because it got shown on TV. She certainly didn't HAVE to explain her actions but she chose to. If you think that's "ice princess" behavior so be it. But to put things in perspective, forget about other sports- how often do you see that in figure skating?

Onto other things- Cohen makes a good point in her own journal- you do want to "be on your best behavior" when you're on camera. The point is drawing the line between showing ambition and showing poor sportsmanship.

In the interview recorded before Campbell's, Sasha said she wanted to win an Olympic gold medal, a World gold medal, and a National gold medal (not sure about the order). When Sasha first caught the media's attention, first in 2000 when she finished 2nd at Nats, then in 2002 when she again finished 2nd at Nats and, along with Michelle and Sarah, was considered a favorite for an Olympic medal. Both back then and now her coahc was John Nicks, who either said said himself in the Vogue article or it was said of him by the writer that Nicks was "so bored" with the image of female ice skaters as "little girls in pink dresses."

In '02, Sasha was heavily criticized by many, while others found her quite refreshing, when she said things in fluff pieces and on-camera interviews such as, "I'm out there to win" and "I'll do whatever I have to to win. I won't rest until I'm number one." I found it refreshing, but I recall reading many posts about how Sasha's attitude was "arrogant," "obnoxious," and/or "shallow."

Some also said her "attitude" carried over into her skating, that as an "arrogant, shallow skater" no wonder her programs were "nothing but acrobatics and circus tricks." When Michelle and Sasha almost collided in a near-miss during warm-up at '02 Nats, IIRC, some posters asserted that when Sasha had said, "I'll do whatever I have to to win" it was an admission that she would crash into her main competitor, rather than something like, "I'll work as hard as I have to" or "I'll change coaches and move across the country" or something to do with skating.

When Sasha was coached by Tarasova, it seemed to me that part of the image change instilled into Sasha by Tarasova was "Watch what you say; keep everything positive." In other words, quintessential ice princess interviews. Same thing when Sasha was with Robin Wagner. Who knows, however, it the change in the way Sasha spoke was due to influence by TT and RW; if Sasha was watching what she said because of stresses between hersself and those coaches; or if Sasha was just maturing and as a result, being less the outspoken teenager and more the circumspect young woman.

I also recall Sasha saying, I can't remember where, when she was with Nicks Phase 1, as I call it, that when she started reading a lot of criticism of what she said coming from the media she was confused. Cohen said, "I asked Mr. Nicks, 'Why are they doing this to me?'" As I recall, Sasha said Nicks told her that the media wanted "the little skater in the music box" and that she shouldn't worry about it but instead she should just be herself, because eventually she would either earn respect based on her skating or, if her skating didn't live up to its potential, she wouldn't.

Now that Sasha is with Nicks Phase 2, obviously she's older, had more experience with the media, and seems to me to have struck a balance between saying whatever comes into her head, being herself, and being realistic about what a skater's relationship with the media is all about.

As for putting into "queen" or "princess" categories or even somewhere on the bell curve between the two extremes, it's not for me, although of course others are free to categorize skaters any way they want to. To me, virtually all the women and men are all such strong individuals that it's their differences that I enjoy. Also, I love watching them change both as people and skaters as they mature, change coaches or choreographers, and go through other changes in their lives.

Rgirl

Interesting analysis, and I think you hit the nail right on the head with this one. THAT's the type of ambition I like. Yes, she's toned it down lately hwell: but it seems that now that the Olympic season is back, some of that ambition is pouring out again. I remember she got criticized for saying that she wanted to win and that she should just focus on "doing her best". Well, don't know what to say to that, but all I can say is "keep on keeping on".

Red Dog said:

Onto other things- Cohen makes a good point in her own journal- you do want to "be on your best behavior" when you're on camera. The point is drawing the line between showing ambition and showing poor sportsmanship.

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Giving an explanation about the spit has nothing to do with ambition or sportsmanship, but it has everything to do with the image. I believe ice princessness is a spectrum, no one is an absolute ice princess or fireball.

gezando said:

Giving an explanation about the spit has nothing to do with ambition or sportsmanship, but it has everything to do with the image.

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Gezando- good lord. That's why I said ONTO OTHER THINGS at the start of that paragraph. In other words, THEY'RE NOT RELATED.

I believe ice princessness is a spectrum, no one is an absolute ice princess or fireball.

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I can give you that. But I already explained what my definition of ice princess is, and I choose to stick to that. IMO Cohen doesn't fit it as much as a few other skaters I know of- not naming any names...

Red Dog said:

Actually, my impression is that ice princesses do the exact OPPOSITE. They smile all the time and try to give off the impression that they're this sweet little angel (hmm), and try to stifle any ambitions they may have of winning. Cohen definitely LOOKS the part, but IMO she doesn't play it.

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I can't agree that "ice princesses" are trying to stifle their ambitions. I saw an interview with Plushy after his meltdown at Worlds 2000; he said he was focussing on the medal, not on his jumps. I think a lot of skaters who get labeled "ice princess" (or even worse, "phoney") are not trying "to stifle their ambitions", but are trying to keep themselves from focussing on the medals. Still others might say something that sounds "ice-princessy", but is simply recognizing that the only thing they can control is their own skating; winning, OTOH involves things that skaters can't control, like judges or what their competitors can do.

I think a lot of skaters who get labeled "ice princess" (or even worse, "phoney") are not trying "to stifle their ambitions", but are trying to keep themselves from focussing on the medals.

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I think trying to keep yourself from focusing on medals during your skate is one thing, but if you SAY that's all you want to do, I think that's stifling your ambitions. Even if you have no hope of winning, you still aim for the podium, or a top 10 placement, etc. It's understandable that skaters would want to skate their best and leave the placement to the judges, but it's ridiculous for one to think that's ALL they want. Ever seen a skater do really well and then "thumb down" or "scowl" at their marks? That just about says it all.

Still others might say something that sounds "ice-princessy", but is simply recognizing that the only thing they can control is their own skating; winning, OTOH involves things that skaters can't control, like judges or what their competitors can do.

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I don't really have an issue with skaters saying this in interviews, but come on- you know they wouldn't be there if they didn't want to win. Few (that I know of) are vocal enough to say this out loud, let alone state it in an interview. For example- Cohen is not afraid to say she wants to win, and that type of attitude is refreshing to me. The person next to me may think that's cocky behavior. But she *might* try to take on a different mindset come skate time.

A lot of athletes say that they just want to have fun, and do their best, not unique to skaters, how many times have we heard Phil Michelson said that.

I think Cohen began her career under Nicks packaging as a fire ball, and somehow changed her packaging and strategy later to more of an ice princess approach. Oh well, just call her as versatile and knows how to sell her image to different fans then. IIRC Cohen talked about I just want to have fun message >>>> than I want to win, probably at a ratio of 19:1. But if some of her fans want to buy the image of fire ball, and if that makes them happy why not. JMO, a real fireball won't care less about their image, and won't attempt to give an explanation after a spit. OTOH some of her super fans want to buy the image of Cohen being an ice princess, if that makes them happy why not.

I think Cohen began her career under Nicks packaging as a fire ball, and somehow changed her packaging and strategy later to more of an ice princess approach.........IIRC Cohen talked about I just want to have fun message >>>> than I want to win.

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For ONCE (somebody record this) I agree with you here!

But while I don't think she'll be like she was in 02, she's slowly starting to show more ambition. But there's an "ice princess" in everybody- you kind of have to be one sometimes to be a "good sport"- and as I said before one has to balance that out. But in figure skating there seems to be a heavy trend towards the "ice princess" segment IMO (hence the term! ). Johnny Weir is somewhat of a dramatic exception, and I'll say Cohen is an exception as well (although I believe she can be an "ice princess" sometimes as well).

So...I think Cohen has a habit of being on the defensive it kind of started with Robin's "accusations". But I see her explanation of the "episode" as a way of defending herself. As if, "I don't normally do this type of stuff but I had no choice in this situation" or something to that effect. Read into that all you want, but that's how I see it.

JMO, a real fireball won't care less about their image

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There is something in this as well. But as I said usually you don't get an extreme. You get something in the middle, weighted either towards one direction or another.,

Red Dog said:

I think trying to keep yourself from focusing on medals during your skate is one thing, but if you SAY that's all you want to do, I think that's stifling your ambitions. Even if you have no hope of winning, you still aim for the podium, or a top 10 placement, etc. It's understandable that skaters would want to skate their best and leave the placement to the judges, but it's ridiculous for one to think that's ALL they want. Ever seen a skater do really well and then "thumb down" or "scowl" at their marks? That just about says it all.

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You misunderstand me. I agree that all athletes hope to win. Where I disagree is that athletes who all want to win will talk about in that manner, or that downplaying the desire will stifle the ambitions. I think a lot of athletes will talk about how all they want to do is do their best because that line of talk makes it easier for them to put aside the "medal focus", as opposed to making major "mental shifts" midway during the season. I also don't believe that the only time skaters need to set aside the "medal focus" is during their skate; they need to set it aside during training, etc. -- or they won't be able to set it aside during their skates.

realistic51 said:

It's why I have a hard time watching baseball.

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At least Sasha didn't scratch her crotch.