The Politics of Figure Skating

If the judges are sitting Irina up to win the OGM, why? Does anyone have any ideas on why the ISU, IOC, or judges in general prefer one skater above others? Why do some federations have more clout than others? You would think since the U.S. provides a lot of training facilities and the U.S. audiences (I am assuming here) buy a lot of tickets and are the ones buying the advertisers products the U.S. federation would have more powere than it does. I am NOT saying that one country 's fed. should have more power than another's..it shouldn't. I am just curious to know how a federation gains power. If the U.S. is at a disadvantage here what can it do to even the playing field?

Piel said:

If the U.S. is at a disadvantage here what can it do to even the playing field?

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Have Irina Slutskaya renounce her Russian citizenship and become a US citizen. Then the US is guaranteed a gold medal at the Olympics. With a picture showing Irina receiving the gold medal in a Biellman position.

Your basic question assumes that the ISU international judges collectively ARE setting up Irina as the next Olympic Gold Medalist. I am personally not convinced of that.

Whatever politics the international judges have been historically suspected of, and/or found guilty of, I do not believe it was in the interest of any particular skater(s). It was about medals for countries, not individuals. I can't proove, that - it's just my opinion.

Not only have global politics changed, but the judging system has changed too. Under 6.0, all a "swing judge" had to do was put one skater/team in a different place (2nd v. 3rd, 1st v. 2nd, etc.) in the LP, and voila - a different outcome.

Under the current system, the judges are anonymous (which I personally abhor) but the scoring system is completely different, and at least we get to see every judges score after the fact on the judges score sheets.

For judges to conspire now, I think it takes more than one "swing voter" to do it, since points matter, not just placements. i.e. if one Federation made a deal with one judge to place IS higher than MK at the Olympics, the obvious place to do that would be in PCS. GOE is a possibility too, but then you have to assume elements will be technically called at a particular level for that to be assured. And since the total accumulation of points matters - not just the placement - how MUCH does the conspiring judge have to score a skater in PCS or GOE to "deliver the conspiratorial goods?" And then we have the problem of high and low being thrown out (right?? maybe I should check the rules on that in case I'm wrong - thanks Piel because this is making me think about whether I have my facts straight!!)

So...a conspiracy would have to involve multiple judges. Getting a particular judge to go out of line to the high or the low would not (I don't think) be enough. I think one might have to have several judges on the panel being part of the conspiracy.

So.... are ALL the ISU sanctioned judges in on this?

I am not discounting the notion that big time cheating might be going on. And I sure hope it isn't, because that's certainly one aspect of this sport I love to watch that I have NEVER liked the notion of. I'm just trying to figure out in my head what would REALLY have to take place for a person, a federation, a government, or whatever to succeed in assuring a particular outcome at the Oly's.

I know I'm naieve - so I hope the responses will help me open my eyes a bit!!

DG

I read somewhere (but I can't remember where, and so, cannot vouch for the source's reliablity, if any) that many federations get their money from their governments -- which, in turn, uses things like competitive results to determine the funding -- whereas the USFSA gets theirs from the TV rights to things like Nats and cheesefests. So, the federations that are government funded have a financial motive to set up "blocs" that will advance their skaters (and help secure their funding) further than might otherwise be the case. The USFSA gets pretty much "left out", since its funding doesn't depend that much on the results of international competitions.

Doggygirl said:

I am not discounting the notion that big time cheating might be going on. And I sure hope it isn't, because that's certainly one aspect of this sport I love to watch that I have NEVER liked the notion of. I'm just trying to figure out in my head what would REALLY have to take place for a person, a federation, a government, or whatever to succeed in assuring a particular outcome at the Oly's.

I know I'm naieve - so I hope the responses will help me open my eyes a bit!!
DG

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Dream on! (And wait for the classic "'told you so!" after the last LP skater in the Olympics.)

JanJam said:

Dream on! (And wait for the classic "'told you so!" after the last LP skater in the Olympics.)

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Sorry, but I don't get whatever you are trying to say. A "told you so" after the LP in the Olys - what does that tell me? I have no idea which skater you're talking about, how they will skate, and who is going to "tell me so."

What I'm trying to figure out, which I think is the topic at hand, is HOW this supposed cheating chould theoretically take place.

General comments about governments and federations aren't enough for me. Specific judges names is way MORE detail than I'm after.

I'm trying to figure out, under the current COP/NJS system, exactly WHAT it would take to pull off a cheat of the magnitude that guarantees a fixed result for an FS event.

As an example, have we seen close comps where PCS scores were "divided" amongst the judges (like the old 5/4 votes under 6.0) in terms of which skater prevailed under PCS? I'm a score sheet junkie. I haven't noticed that, but I wasn't looking for it either. And if that HAS been the case (split on PCS side) what was the corresponding TES?

Maybe this cup is half empty. That might go something like this. "The system is now so complicated that all the judges are in on it, and a reasonable person can't even figure out HOW they are cheating, but we have reasonable belief that they ARE cheating."

Or...the cup might be half full, where the complexity of fixing scores across a technical caller and the whole judging panel, where points count - not judge placements - might make it a whole lot more challenging to cheat.

Interesting topic either way.

DG

What really urks me about FS politics, is when a competition takes place in any country, and that pretty much guarantees that at least one or two from that country(including all fields of skating. pairs, ladies,men, ice dance) will be on the podium, somewhere, even if those people were obviously not the best. Why hasn't anyone thrown a fit over this type of thing? :scratch:

CzarinaAnya said:

What really urks me about FS politics, is when a competition takes place in any country, and that pretty much guarantees that at least one or two from that country(including all fields of skating. pairs, ladies,men, ice dance) will be on the podium, somewhere, even if those people were obviously not the best. Why hasn't anyone thrown a fit over this type of thing? :scratch:

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Anya, I think it has been brought up many time that skaters seem to benefit from "home cooking "when their country hosts a competetion. The North Americans after SLC, U.S. after D.C. World's, and Russians after Moscow Worlds. The question, IMO is does the home ice advantage improve performance that much? Or are the judges afraid they won't make it out of the country with all of their luggage?

JanJam said:

Dream on! (And wait for the classic "'told you so!" after the last LP skater in the Olympics.)

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Same goes for the US Nationals, people suspect that Michelle is a shoo-in. Will fans of other skaters say "told you so". With regards to the Olympics, if Irena keeps on skating like she is now and continues to work hard, she will deserve to win the OGM. It's going to take more than passion and the skaters our-of-body-experience and applauding from the audience to get top marks from here-on-in. They will have to work for it fair and square. Thank the skating gods-out with the 6.0's and in with the new CoP's.

DG my original questions were referring to all of the comments that the judges were "handing the medal" to Irina. If they are, why Irina? I mean she's not THAT charming. (just playing RD here)

CzarinaAnya said:

What really urks me about FS politics, is when a competition takes place in any country, and that pretty much guarantees that at least one or two from that country(including all fields of skating. pairs, ladies,men, ice dance) will be on the podium, somewhere, even if those people were obviously not the best. Why hasn't anyone thrown a fit over this type of thing? :scratch:

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To me anyway, I don't count Campbell's or the Japan Invitational etc. in the mix you are describing. I assume you are talking about Grand Prix events.

I might have missed something on a cursory glance, but we've had two full, and one partial (full result) events this season. Here are the results based on your issue with "home country" victories.

1) Skate America - I think B/A in Dance were the only home country skater(s) to win there. Do you think they were "gifted" with a home turf win? And if so, who do you think should have won Dance at SA?

2) Skate Canada - (THIS IS A SPOILER. Please do not post spoilers in The Edge.)

3) Cup of China - (Same as above)

I really am interested in feedback. I have been accused many times in my life of being naieve. But I am having trouble seeing many of the points being raised about now. Hope you can enlighten me!!

DG

DG-I had to edit your post due to spoilers being posted here. Please be careful of this as we continue through the season. Thank you!!

millie said:

It's going to take more than passion and the skaters our-of-body-experience and applauding from the audience to get top marks from here-on-in. They will have to work for it fair and square. Thank the skating gods-out with the 6.0's and in with the new CoP's.

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But Millie, if a skater's performance has THAT much of a positive effect on THAT much of the audience shouldn't it be rewarded in some way? Remember Kurt saying at Campbell's that the skaters were not just skating but performing too? If performance is a part of skating than an audience's positive reaction to the performance should be reflected in the judging. If not skaters would skate their programs all to thesam music, in uniforms, to an empty arena. How many skaters would do this if they didn't skate before an audience?

JanJam said:

Have Irina Slutskaya renounce her Russian citizenship and become a US citizen. Then the US is guaranteed a gold medal at the Olympics. With a picture showing Irina receiving the gold medal in a Biellman position.

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If it takes a Biellman position to win a gold medal , that's what it takes. I would love to see Irina accepting the gold in a Biellman position, and any other position that she would put herself in.

The standard concern is that with the breakup of the Soviet Union, suddenly the so-called "Eastern Bloc" has a lot more votes. It would be quite possible (check out the judging panel for pairs for the coming Torino Olympics, for instance) for a skater to face judges from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Lithuania, Uzbekistan, even Israel, all of whom grew up and trained together in Moscow. The suspicion is that they might have some sort of unannounced agenda, or at the least be susceptible to “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours.”

About the power (= money) of the USFSA, I think that does play a role in ISU decisions. Maybe Speedy will twist some arms to make sure America is not shut out of the Olympic medals altogether. (I almost wrote that maybe Johnny Weir will get a pity bronze in Torino, but it’s only the ladies that U.S. money interests care about.)

Doggygirl, the questions that you ask in post #6 have been quite seriously treated by statisticians. The most vocal expert against the CoP is Dr. George Rossano, who has published extensively on the statistical peculiarities of the NJS. It seems to be pretty widely accepted by the experts that it is neither easier nor harder to cheat under one system than another. In either system a small group of conspirators could easily sway the results and not get caught. In the case of the CoP, small fluctuations about the mean in either GOE or PCS would do the trick quite as handily as giving someone a third place ordinal instead of a second. (And that’s assuming that the tech specialist and his crew are not in on the deal.)

About Irina specifically, I do not see any evidence so far that she is being held up, gifted, anointed, or anything else. What I am seeing is that, by any reasonable measure, she is simply outskating everyone else.

I think for the most part the ISU wants to run a sound program. They want fair judging and a clean sport. Unfortunately, with respect to the Olympics, they are up against forces of politics and national chauvinism that are bigger than they are. I was interested to read, on another thread, that the Italian government finally was able to prevail over the International Olympic Committee about enforcement of drug laws. The (quite reasonable) position of the Italian government was that Olympic athletes have to obey the laws of Italy. The IOC argued (unsuccessfully, as it appears) that, no, we will take care of these violations in house.

The people who really suffer are the athletes from small countries that do not have any geo-political clout.

MM

Piel said:

But Millie, if a skater's performance has THAT much of a positive effect on THAT much of the audience shouldn't it be rewarded in some way? Remember Kurt saying at Campbell's that the skaters were not just skating but performing too? If performance is a part of skating than an audience's positive reaction to the performance should be reflected in the judging. If not skaters would skate their programs all to thesam music, in uniforms, to an empty arena. How many skaters would do this if they didn't skate before an audience?

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If that is the case, why do we need judges. Why not have all the competitions like the upcoming Marshalls. Then the skater that has the most fans and the biggest applauds wins--a popularity contest.

You are missing the point,I think. Of course you need judges. I think that the audiences reaction to the skating should have some bearing on the marks. A skater has fans because their skating drew those fans in. You don't see large fan bases for lousy skaters. It's not a popularity contest but who's skating has the most impact on the audience. If there are more Kwan fans in the audience, why is that....because her SKATING has made those folks her fans.

millie said:

It's going to take more than passion and the skaters our-of-body-experience and applauding from the audience to get top marks from here-on-in. They will have to work for it fair and square.

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I agree, definitely! It will take all of that, but moreso the ever-so-big-guarantee-of-a-win, the Irina Slutskaya Biellman! That's the surefire way to win.

As for fair and square? Hmm...dream on!

Piel said:

You are missing the point,I think. Of course you need judges. I think that the audiences reaction to the skating should have some bearing on the marks. A skater has fans because their skating drew those fans in. You don't see large fan bases for lousy skaters. It's not a popularity contest but who's skating has the most impact on the audience. If there are more Kwan fans in the audience, why is that....because her SKATING has made those folks her fans.

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Do you mean that the skater with the most fans should get higher marks and win over another skater that has less fans. Same should go for the OGM, if Irina has more fans at the Olympics and wins, what's the difference.!
!

millie said:

If it takes a Biellman position to win a gold medal , that's what it takes. I would love to see Irina accepting the gold in a Biellman position, and any other position that she would put herself in.

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I think that's what's being said all along. Do your Biellmans and even with a sloppy skate and other mistakes, you'll win. So there's no disagreement there. Go Biellman, go!

JanJam said:

I agree, definitely! It will take all of that, but moreso the ever-so-big-guarantee-of-a-win, the Irina Slutskaya Biellman! That's the surefire way to win.

As for fair and square? Hmm...dream on!

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Ditto, same goes for the US Nationals. Who wants to bet that the US Nationals will be fair and square..dream on. Probably Kwan should try to do a Biellman, I bet you would love the Biellman then.

Irina has more than Biellmans on her side. Just look at her scores. Some fans has Biellman on the Brain-seems like that's all they can talk about.