Russian jump technique?

Mathman · Nov 8, 2005

On the TV coverage of Skate Canada, Suzie Wynn made this comment in contrasting Fumie Suguri's jumping style with that of a skater like Irina Slutskaya.

In the "Russian jump technique" the upper body leads, almost with a pre-rotation, then the hips catch up in the air.

In the Japanese style, the rotation of the upper body is delayed.

Have any of you guys ever noticed this? Is there a "North American" style? How similar are the jumping styles of, say, Slutskaya, Sokolova and Liashenko? Or for that matter, of Suguri, Arakawa, Ando and Asada? what about the men?

Mathman

childfreegirl · Nov 8, 2005

I haven't noticed it, but I remember the remark. I've always wondered what was meant by "the Russian style of training" or "Japanese style training", etc.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 8, 2005

Jumping has a lot to do with natural rotation. Some guys have it some don't. skating is a slippery sport and I find that the Russians regardless of the music will very carefully prepare for the upcoming jumps. Watch Irina and Evgeni, their heads will bow down ever so slightly as will their eyes as they focus on the upcoming jumps. (I wish Bebe would learn this. She jumps with abandon).

Daisake(sp) jumps from a very low position - his body almost parallel to the ice on toe pic jumps. I don't know if there is a Japanese school in jumping that is different. I'll check out others although Honda is basically a Canadian skater.

Of course, speaking of Canadians, there is always Kurt who will jump when you least expect it.

Joe

76olympics · Nov 8, 2005

Joesitz, where would you place "Jumpin' Joe" Sabovcik in this grouping? I always heard his jump technique was different from that of western skaters and he talked about this a bit in his autobiography.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 8, 2005

I haven't seen him in competitions but in show skating he is a STAR. Those jumps just hang in the air. I couldn't care less if he rotates 6 turns of 1. His jumping is totally his own - no school, just natural talent.

Joe

Kasey · Nov 8, 2005

76olympics said:
Joesitz, where would you place "Jumpin' Joe" Sabovcik in this grouping? I always heard his jump technique was different from that of western skaters and he talked about this a bit in his autobiography.

Something I like with Josef, his jumps, he gets into the air before starting rotation...there is like a slight delay to his rotation, and it makes for even a more enormous jump.

layman · Nov 8, 2005

I was very :scratch: by Suzie's comments.

If anything, it's the American ladies (at least the class of 95-2000) who pre-rotate their upper bodies going into the jumps.

I don't see the Russian ladies do that.

The most delayed and least pre-rotated jumps that I can recall (from the recent past) were those of Chen Lu. So, is there a Chinese school of jumping too?

soogar · Nov 8, 2005

Josef is Lussi technique all the way. He starts rotating at the peak of his jump and not before. Sarah was like this as well (Robin trained under Lussi). Sarah had a hard time rotating her jumps because she waited until the peak to rotate.

jesslily · Nov 8, 2005

Did Lussi also teach Robin or Robin teach Sarah to hunch back forward taking off flip and lutz, and lift the free leg very high beforetoe in the ice?

mzheng · Nov 8, 2005

What I heard about Sarah was Robin was her choreographer, SH had another tech coach back then, when she first came to Robin she already had all her triples. What Robin diddn't do was to correct her jumping technique at her young age.

layman · Nov 8, 2005

It seems to me that the Queen of this pre-rotated upper body technique was Tara Lipinski.

She always seemed to rotate her upper body 1/3 a revolution or more before snapping her hips to get airborne and complete the jump. I call this Tara technique (rather than the Russian school) and I noticed this kind of technique among the Americans from approximately the class of 93 to the present. This group included Tara, Michelle, Jenny Kirk, Sasha Cohen, Naomi Nari Nam and Deanna Stellatto. Coincidently all these ladies (with the exception of Cohen) have had hip ailments related to jumping.

I did not see the pre-rotation of the upper body (and the snapping hips) with Tonya Harding or Nancy Kerrigan, nor do I see it with Meissner, Czissny, or Emily Hughes (the generations before and after the 93-2000 class).

antmanb · Nov 9, 2005

Mathman said:
On the TV coverage of Skate Canada, Suzie Wynn made this comment in contrasting Fumie Suguri's jumping style with that of a skater like Irina Slutskaya.

In the "Russian jump technique" the upper body leads, almost with a pre-rotation, then the hips catch up in the air.

Mathman

I think that ever coach has their own particular way of teaching multi rotation jumps and that's regardless of where they're from. Mishin i know teaches a very minimal upper body action on his jumps. Since the take off to every jump has the upper body in the same position (slight tweak on the axel - though look at plushy he still leads with his left arm on the axel and he's mishin's pupil) the point of the jump is to bring the arms in to the same position as quickly as possible with as little upper body movement as possible.

I have heard of landing position differences between europe and north america. The north american landing position is encourage to be more open and arms more at 180 degrees rather the european style of left arm more forward and right arm out to the side.

Ant

antmanb · Nov 9, 2005

layman said:
I was very :scratch: by Suzie's comments.

If anything, it's the American ladies (at least the class of 95-2000) who pre-rotate their upper bodies going into the jumps.

I don't see the Russian ladies do that.

The most delayed and least pre-rotated jumps that I can recall (from the recent past) were those of Chen Lu. So, is there a Chinese school of jumping too?

I was going to mention lulu - she had really delayed jumps - the first rotation was really slow then she'd just speed up hugely for the second and third turns.

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2005

I understand pre-rotation on the ice before going airborne is not considered wrong in calling the jump a triple even if actual airborne is only 2-1/2

Much of Tara's jump technique was to turn on the ice at least a half before going airborne.

She, Sasha, and several other ladies were/are spinners in the air more than making loop rotations in the air.

Joe

antmanb · Nov 9, 2005

Joesitz said:
I understand pre-rotation on the ice before going airborne is not considered wrong in calling the jump a triple even if actual airborne is only 2-1/2

Much of Tara's jump technique was to turn on the ice at least a half before going airborne.

She, Sasha, and several other ladies were/are spinners in the air more than making loop rotations in the air.

Joe

Really? I have heard the opposite opinion put forward - that pre-rotation on the ice is a "cheated" jump but pre-rotation of the body is not as long as the blade doesn't pre-rotate. As an example of this look at Jenna McKorkell's triple salchow - she turns her body to forwards while deepening the back inside edge. She jumps with her blade turning the requisit 1/4 turn on the ice but her body is all the way round to forwards.

Re the tara and sasha comments - i'd say - aren't all the elite skaters air spinners since the point of a jump is to achieve the backspin air position and rotate as quickly as you would in a backspin to get the rotations?

Ant

jesslily · Nov 9, 2005

I know Sarah took from Jeff D. before she switched to Robin W. But Jeff is considered very strict technique coach who teaches right jumping skills.

gkelly · Nov 9, 2005

layman said:
If anything, it's the American ladies (at least the class of 95-2000) who pre-rotate their upper bodies going into the jumps.

I don't see the Russian ladies do that.

Do you remember Julia Soldatova's salchow?

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2005

antmanb said:
Re the tara and sasha comments - i'd say - aren't all the elite skaters air spinners since the point of a jump is to achieve the backspin air position and rotate as quickly as you would in a backspin to get the rotations?

Ant

Ant - It's called figureskating. Loops are the tracings for spins on the ice. In the air, if we continue the definitiion of figure skating, the jumps should be in the form of loops when rotating; not trwizzles.

Your 'point of a jump' is more technique to attain a goal than a definition. Others can rotate in the air differently as in the case of Sabovik(sp). Check out the different approaches to air rotations from different skaters. Hughes jumps first then turns, v.d.Perren jumps and then spots his turns. I've seen Plush jump, turn one slowly and 2 quickly.

Tara in particular, began spinning the jump on the ice and then lifted off and continued spinning. While this method may be legal, it just is not pleasing for me.

Joe

backspin · Nov 9, 2005

You are not turning in loops in the air--you're rotating around an axis that runs directly through your body (top of the head through to the feet). So the air rotation is more of a mid-air spin. If you aren't straight it will throw you off the axis & kill the jump (especially anything multi-rotational). Not possible to do "loops" in the air.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2005

Your more than correct. Sorry about that, my point should have been the variety of air turns only.

BTW, When I see competitions live, I have noticed that some skaters while in the air are slanted to the ice. They are not verticle yet they manage to land fine. I presume that's ok.

Joe

Russian jump technique?

Mathman

childfreegirl

Joesitz (RIP)

76olympics

Joesitz (RIP)

Kasey

layman

soogar

jesslily

mzheng

layman

antmanb

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

jesslily

gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

backspin

Joesitz (RIP)

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