Martha will fire you for that .Originally Posted by Mathman
Martha will fire you for that .Originally Posted by Mathman
I can picturing this happening soon. But as soon as this happens. The scores for rival nations will get even lower.Originally Posted by Joesitz
This was the second post after Joe's yet most people--the exceptions know who they are --are focusing on how this one criterion out of five for Performance/Execution will ensure that the Russians will get all the OGM medals.Originally Posted by Screech
Yet Chuckm tells us:Assuming both Screech and Chuckm are correct, then IMO the COP is doing exactly what it was intended to do; that is, allow some judges to give high scores to skaters they think are deserving in areas that are impossible to quantify. Previously, "some posters" complained that the COP would not reward a skater such as Michelle for what she does best, one of which being her connection with the audience. Well, here it is.So far, the only skaters we've seen who got 9s from (some of ) the judges were Irina and Navka/Kostomarov. I expect to see near-10s for N/K at Torino, and I think that is ridiculous. They are good, but they aren't THAT good. If Plushenko is in fighting trim, I'm sure we will see 9+ for him too. We haven't seen Totmianina / Marinin yet, but look for 9s there also.
Anybody see a trend here?
Looking at the top six LP finishers at the '05 Worlds in Dortmund, Irina received an average P/E score of 8.43 from all 11 judges, with the two highs being 9.00 and 9.00 and the two lows being 8.25 and 8.00, all of which would have been thrown out, along with two random P/E scores.
Sasha received an average P/E score of 7.50 from all 11 judges, with the two highs being 8.25 and 8.00 and the two lows being 7.25 and 7.50, all of which would have been thrown out, along with two random P/E scores.
Michelle received an average Performance/Execution score of 7.39 with the two highs being 7.75 and the two lows being 6.25 and 6.50, all of which would have been thrown out, along with two random P/E scores.
The next three skaters in terms of average P/E scores were:
Poykio/Ando tied at 6.79
I realize the Russians won three out of the four gold medals, but I can't argue Totmianina/Marinin; can't argue Slutskaya; and at least I can't argue N/K, but I realize in ice dance people tend to argue outcomes more often than other disciplines unless it's an absolute kill, but then ice dancing is the most difficult discipline to quantify. Then we have Lambiel of Switzerland and I don't know whose "bloc" he comes under.
Speaking of blocs, how about the North American/Asian bloc?
It's one thing to say who got the highest component score in any of the categories, but it's quite another to own up to the fact that the two highest and two lowest component scores get THROWN OUT. They don't go into the average that counts towards the placements. It's as if they don't even exist. The highs and lows are the truly invisible scores. They don't count.
As for the wording for the "Projection" element of Performance/Execution, again, just 1/5th of the P/E category: "The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience," I have absolutely no problem with it. If such wording were not included, people would be complaining, "But what about the skater who bonds with the audience? Who radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection the audience? THAT'S why I watch and love figure skating!"
I think the arguments about the wording of the "Projection" element of the P/E component is much ado about 1/5th of a component out of five total components. Mathman, how much is that out of the total component scores, assuming each element of a component is judged equally?
PS Hey, Screech. Say hi to Stan, Kyle, and Cartman for me.
Last edited by Rgirl; 11-10-2005 at 05:07 PM.
Originally Posted by MathmanNow, Piel. You know Martha would never do anything so crass as to "fire" someone. She would just tell Mathman, "It's time for you to go," and then write him a pleasant note with criticisms between the lines.Originally Posted by Piel
<-- Martha smile.
Only if you turn it upside-down.Originally Posted by Joesitz
What's all this hullaballoo about the invisible connection? (I didn't click on this thread at first because it sounded boring. Shows what I know.)
People, people, people....it's quite simple. Simmer down. Don't have a cow, and untwist your undergarments.
Here is how judges will view the invisible connection with the audience:
See? This has already been field tested by the ISU.
So be at peace, grasshoppers. There's nothing wrong with this picture.
I repeat: There is nothing...
.....loving the post and the visual representations, Spirit!
Rgirl - You are joking. I can just imagine the bloc blocking out Miki and Joannie in favor of Sasha. or blocking out Daisake and Li in favor of Johnny. Where oh where are the Taiwanese on this issue.Originally Posted by Rgirl
Oh dear, if I only knew which 4 were thrown out:banging:[/QUOTE]It's one thing to say who got the highest component score in any of the categories, but it's quite another to own up to the fact that the two highest and two lowest component scores get THROWN OUT. They don't go into the average that counts towards the placements. It's as if they don't even exist. The highs and lows are the truly invisible scores. They don't count.
Mme Curie was like that, too. I guess a standing ovation will clear up this radiating crowd for Carolina.'s one fifth of the score.As for the wording for the "Projection" element of Performance/Execution, again, just 1/5th of the P/E category: "The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience," I have absolutely no problem with it. If such wording were not included, people would be complaining, "But what about the skater who bonds with the audience? Who radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection the audience? THAT'S why I watch and love figure skating!"
Originally Posted by RgirlI meant the North American and Asian judges working together as a bloc the way the Russians and Eastern European judges are said to do. Thus the NA/Asian bloc could conceivably, if you believe they can work in the NJS, block out a Russian or Eastern European skater or team.Originally Posted by Joesitz
Oh, now you're pulling my leg.Originally Posted by Joesitz
Seriously, the only thing in terms of scores we can't tell is which random scores are thrown out, which could make the difference in a close contest. Then, of course, there's that little question of which scores belong to which judges--Speedy's favorite "deal." (Can we get a barfing emoticon, please?)
Assuming each component category is defined by five elements (just to make it easier for me to try to calculate), if there are 11 judges, each element is 1/275th of what goes into the total component scores, which, after the two high, two low, and two random are thrown out, leaving the scores of five judges, becomes 1/25th of what goes into the component scores that go into determining placement.Originally Posted by Joesitz
Of course that's not counting the 13 technical elements (for ladies) in the LP evaluated by the 11 judges, which gets us 143 different scores before the highs, lows, and randoms are thrown out. And here I'll leave it to Mathman to figure out the final contribution in the final scheme of the five-judge COP panel as to what percentage the skater's "invisible connection" to the audience ends up as--if any of us still care.
Now in all seriousness, bloc judging can only be of value for a renowned top skater who is competing against another renowned top skater and the pending results appear to be close. e.g.:Originally Posted by Rgirl
Sasha v. Irina. Do you really think Shizuka's homeland is going to jump on Sasha's bandwagon to satisfy the requirements of the N.A./Asian bloc? If it were Shizuka v. Irina, I am quite sure that the Americans or Canadians would probably be quite honest in their decision. (No Joannie; No Sasha involved) However, there is always cultural bias and E.Europeans have close ties in that area. I might add, that there may be personal antagonisms between certain judges, but that we don't know unless someone speaks out.
I agree with Joesitz. I cant see an Asian/North American block forming, there isnt enough of a relation or a connection between them to make it feasable,
and I dont think either would really see the benefit of it. An Eastern European bloc is much easier to form, and much more prominent in skating. That isnt to say it is fair to assume anytime an Eastern European wins, even if sometimes it is a close decision, to assume there was a bloc at work.
Not in the least! I'd never be able to say that Plushy won because of a bloc, but I might say he was held up if he puts in a poor skate - not likely but it does happen in skateland.Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
Count me in, Rgirl! I love that language.Originally Posted by Rgirl
And speaking of Michelle, the ISU also needs to work in something along the lines of,
"The skater must project to the audience a tension between an inevitability in anticipation and a resolution satisfying beyond all expectation."
Michelle is like this:
I know that my lilacs will come into bloom every April. I know just exactly how pretty they'll look when they do. And yet... No matter how pleasing remembrance of last year may be, I'll be surprised all over again at the poverty of mere memory after all.
PS. Your mission, Rgirl, should you choose to accept it -- put an extra syllable on the end of that third line and straighten out the metre of the last line for me. p)
Last edited by Mathman; 11-11-2005 at 09:11 PM.