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Thread: Ladies SP from TV - COC

  1. #31
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Tara, imo, did do the little dahling skate and together with the consecutive loop jumps won the contest. I agree to this. There were faults, of course, but the joie de patinage had to shine over Kwan's reluctance to go all out. But this is a bygone era. My use of Mao, whom I see as a bright talented kid on the horizon as compared to Tara was the delightful and enjoyable skate she had at COC. Who says Carmen has to be sexy. Carmen was a business woman first and foremost. How does one portray that on skates? Carmen was once a little girl who had dreams, too. Mao had that.

    Bizet's music, imo, can be interpreted in many ways. Not necessary to go with the opera. Can you imagine skating to Mozart's Divertimento No. l5 and looking for the book he didn't write? Mozart's non opera music is skateable, imo, but there are no skaters of that maturity to do them justice. One can feel music, but can one express that in dance and skating? Not easy. Much easier to throw in a dagger at the end of Un Bel Di; or flap your arms for Swan Lake not to mention wearing a dumb costume to show the story the skater can't really feel.

    Joe

  2. #32
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    Mozart

    Michelle Kwan, with help from Lori Nichols, could have skated to Mozart. She has the depth to pull it off. She has alot going on under the surface I think. I try not to think of what might have been.

  3. #33
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Can you imagine skating to Mozart's Divertimento No. l5 and looking for the book he didn't write? Mozart's non opera music is skateable, imo, but there are no skaters of that maturity to do them justice. One can feel music, but can one express that in dance and skating? Not easy. Much easier to throw in a dagger at the end of Un Bel Di; or flap your arms for Swan Lake not to mention wearing a dumb costume to show the story the skater can't really feel.

    Joe
    Joe, I thought you didn't expect skaters to interpret pieces like this????

    (now, if you want to diss some "arm flapping" then count me in!! )

    DG

  4. #34
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    Can you imagine skating to Mozart's Divertimento No. l5 and looking for the book he didn't write? Mozart's non opera music is skateable, imo, but there are no skaters of that maturity to do them justice. One can feel music, but can one express that in dance and skating? Not easy. Much easier to throw in a dagger at the end of Un Bel Di; or flap your arms for Swan Lake not to mention wearing a dumb costume to show the story the skater can't really feel.
    Well, thanks mentioning Mozart, I am listening to WAM's divertimento #15 K287 as I am typing, it is a lengthy 40 min piece. I think WAM's opera, vocal and instrumental pieces are very skateable. I don't understand why choreographers don't try Mozart often. Off the top of my head only Fumie, had tried it recently. Initially Lori used the G minor symphony #40 + PC #23, then later in the season Lori switched the G minor symphony with the more light hearted eine kliene nacht music. I agree Mozart is not easy to perform for musicians and skaters. I believe many concert pianists stated that Mozart's PC are the most difficult. It is much easier for them to perform something from e.g. Liszt, just pound and beat the crap out of the piano. For the longest time I wish Michelle will someday skate to Der Holle Rache (queen of night aria) There was a time I wished Hughes will skate to Laudate Dominum from Mozart's solemn vespers of the confessor. I also wish Fumie will skate to the first adagio movememt (third movement) from WAM's gran partita K361. Fumie is so ethereal, I think she will do justice to it.
    Last edited by gezando; 11-16-2005 at 12:25 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Rgirl, you are in fine fettle this morning, but what are you picking on me for? Here is my position on Irina's scores (post #12 above)
    I picked on you because I wanted a definition of "modern history of skating," which you kindly and politely supply as:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Modern = after 2004 (or any time after Sasha got that 197 that blows a hole in my case, LOL).
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Anyway, I am on the side of the Angels (Irina = "peace" in Greek) on this one. I never said anything about Irina's scores being higher than she deserved, or that there was a conspiracy to hold her up and hand her the gold medal.
    I never said you said any of those things. Just wanted the defination as stated above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    When I said that I don't think there is anything that Sasha, Michelle, Shizuka or anyone else can do to match the scores that Irina is putting up, I am looking at the list of point values for the CoP. Obviously Irina can screw up, but that's a separate question. The question is, is it realistic to hope that Michelle, for instance, can raise her spins to a level 4, work in a triple/triple, get fancier connecting steps, etc. -- and if she does, and you add up all the little .5s and .7s that she will gain by doing so, will that be enough to match Irina's point total? (Or Sasha or Shizuka.)

    How can you put such silly words in my mouth, the opposite of what I have said about ten times on these several Irina threads?

    If they skate as well as Irina, they will get high scores, too. So far this season, no one has.
    Okay, my bad for saying you would say they'd never get Irina's PCS scores. But still "no possibility"? For Shizuka and Sasha, I think they have a chance of making their programs equal to Irina's base score, especially Shizuka with her command of multiple jump combos, more flexible and as far as I know uninjured lower back for use in more Beillmans, and the mother of packing programs with point value, Tarasova as her coach--not to mention Shizuka's magnificent skating, which we saw in Dortmund '04 and which, after her COC LP I think is still there but was probably just tuckered out from all the recent changes and travelling.

    True, so far no one has skated up to Irina, but Shizza's problems I've just discussed, we've only seen Sasha at Campbell's, haven't seen Michelle and won't see her till Nats says Team Kwan, and who knows what points lie in the programs as yet unseen or not yet choreographed into other skaters' programs?

    Besides, you never say anything I can pick on, you reasonable b***h. So I have to take 'em where I can get 'em.

    Rgirl

  6. #36
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2
    Michelle Kwan, with help from Lori Nichols, could have skated to Mozart. She has the depth to pull it off. She has alot going on under the surface I think. I try not to think of what might have been.
    Kwan doesn't need a story behind the music. She makes her own story to the music. Kwan has body language.

    Joe

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Rgirl - Let's agree to disagree on Tara. Whether it's 98 Ladies or SLC Pairs nothing will change anyone's mind.
    Moot point. I don't want to change your mind about Tara. I just wanted to state my opinion why I thought Tara won the '98 OGM.

    Though there is one thing: "Mommie dresses"? When the heck did Tara wear "mommie dresses"? For real question.

    As for SLC Pairs, same deal, except I hope you learn to count how long 20 seconds is soon.

    One thousand one...

    Just kidding. Other than my question about "mommie dresses," agreed.

    Rgirl

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    "Since the philosophy of GS is that skaters should skate to the essence of the music, not the story of the opera," [quote Gezando] Speak for yourself! If there's a "philosophy of GS" other than the rules set down by the administrator and mods, I want nooooo part of it. I'll decide for myself, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezando
    IIRC Joesitz has been consistently posting about skating to the essence of the opera and not the story, that made an impression on me, and so I followed up on that train of thought. Yes, I speak for myself, and I have deleted / edited that in my post # 18.
    Wow, you did go and relax! That's great!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezando
    IMO, Cohen’s interpretation of Carmen is the most boring among senior lady skaters, she was not skating to the essence of the character or the music. I have been totally relax, and staying on topic on #18. rgirl whatever happen to your willingness to "suck it up" afterall you are the originator of the "suck it up" campaign.
    What am I not "sucking up"? You love to bash Sasha; I say, "Have at her." All this started when a few people--you can find their posts--stated their less than favorable opinion about Mao Asada and/or her "Carmen" SP, which is their right according to the GS rules and regs. So who among us did not "suck it up"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    And yes, Gez, we've known for a long time that for you it wasn't, "The Olys are coming," to quote Joe, but that it was "Asada is coming!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezando
    "we"??? didn't you dish out in #19, that each poster should only speak for himself/ herself.
    Gez, you are absolutely right that what I was using as the "royal we" was completely unclear in light of my previous remarks. Thus you can see for yourself how I have edited my former "we" in that sentence. Thank you for pointing it out.

    But just to be clear, I didn't "dish out in #19 that each poster should only speak for himself/herself." That would be speaking for other people. I said, "I'll speak for myself, thank you."

    Yadda, yadda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    I dare ya to go comment on my post in the "COC Ladies LP on TV" thread. IMO, what's bad for Mao's "Carmen" is good for her "Clara.”
    Gez--you left out the emoticon after Clara. I'd appreciate it if you'd quote my sentences as they are written, including emoticons. I use them for a reason. Of course you don't have to quote the entire post--that goes for everyone re my posts, which is all I can speak to. God help us all if we have to start quoting my entire posts!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezando
    I haven’t watched the tape of LP yet, I may go to the LP thread or I may not, what is the big deal with such histrionics about daring me to comment on your post over there .
    Now, see. With the smiley face, there's nothing "histrionic" about it at all. Besides, even Mathman said I was "in fine fettle" that morning. There's nothing histrionic about being in fine fettle. I was just trying, yet again, to tap into your sense of humor, to lighten things up. Three and a half years of trying to see if you have a sense of humor and still no luck.

    More yadda, yadda. BS, BS. Still no sense of humor from Gez.

    Gez, see your interpretation of my joke with Jimmy Hoffa. If JH has ever had a problem with it since the two years ago or so when I wrote it, he's never said anything to me. Plus he strikes me as someone who has always been perfectly capable of taking care of himself. That's what I mean when I say to you "try to relax." But it does make me love you all the more to know you still keep files on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    People love me….
    Now, Gez, I know you didn't know about my request for you to quote my entire sentences, including emoticons, when you did this, so you get a freebie. In any case, I think this definitely needs some context, unless you're trying to make it look as if I'm saying something I'm not, which I'm sure you would never do. (Cough, cough--excuse me.) I'll use the minimum context: Rgirl said, "Am I forever to be the lone GSer who gets called out by our Resident Cartman and #1 Rgirl Basher, the Great Gezando? Oh, I do hope so! Considering the source, I like it. Never give up on me, Gez! People love me for it! " Quite a difference, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezando
    Now will you take your own medicine and relax.
    See my explanation and quote of Mathman's "fine fettle" comment about me above. I'm not only relaxed, but I'm also having a grand time, especially now that at I know you still love me. Yes, you do! You try to hide it, but you love me, just as I do you!

    Rgirl

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Kwan doesn't need a story behind the music. She makes her own story to the music. Kwan has body language.
    ITA. And let's hope Michelle's body language is exceptionally fluent at Nats, Olys, and Worlds--and also includes numbers.

    Rgirl

  10. #40
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    Joe, I thought you didn't expect skaters to interpret pieces like this????

    (now, if you want to diss some "arm flapping" then count me in!! )

    DG
    DG - How many Carmen's I've watched on skates is more than I ever saw at the Opera. The story is a potboiler and the outcome does not shock as you turn 14. It was refreshing to watch Mao ignore the story line for me.

    Carmen for men is another tiresome book to read. Escamillio was an egotist and one never feels he is truly in love with Carmen so her murder is insignifant in his life as he enters the bull ring where he delights the crowd. So many boys who use the Toreador confuse it with a warrior. It's just a star on stage.

    I'd like to see a man skate the Don Jose part. - Not easy for them to show the jealousy, the madness, the need to kill, and the heartbreak.

    Joe

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    ITA. And let's hope Michelle's body language is exceptionally fluent at Nats, Olys, and Worlds--and also includes numbers.

    Rgirl
    Well we know she has 6.0 down .....how high can she go?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piel
    Well we know she has 6.0 down .....how high can she go?
    Piel, you never fail to get a out of me! Hey. let's hope Michelle can go up to about 200 TSS!

    Rgirl

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgirl

    All this started when a few people--you can find their posts--stated their less than favorable opinion about Mao Asada and/or her "Carmen" SP, which is their right according to the GS rules and regs. ……


    My original #18

    Quoting Shine


    "Mao has unbelievable ease in everything she does. But her presentation is just "too light" for my taste and I didn't really like the cutesey things she's doing in her program. An amazing skater nevertheless. "

    My reply to Shine
    Quote Originally Posted by gezando
    I like her light presentation, it seems like she can almost take flight, and there is nothing to weigh her down. I don't mind the cutesey, things she is doing. I think Mao has amazing musicality for her age. I think she interprets Carmen well. I agree with one of the moderators here who advocated that skaters should perform the essence of the opera, and not try to tell the story of the opera in four mins. Carmen is an archetye of a seductress. Kat Witt seduces with her winks and wiggles that oozes with sexual powers. Kat Witt's Carmen seduces and gets her way with big time flirt. I think Mao seduces and gets her way with cute wink, wiggles that oozes with wit, like e.g. Despina from Cosi fan tutte. I believe Despina was just a teenager like Mao. IMO 15 y/o Mao's Carmen is more interesting, compare to e.g the boring interpretation from a 17 y/oCohen.

    I don't think 15 year old Mao is overdosing us on her cuteness, since she looks younger than 15, IMO she can still get away with it. Actually Irina's LP from 96 with those light blue feather on her costume was so sweet that I was afraid someone may go into a diabetic coma just by watching it. And a 16 year old Irina who weighed at least 20 lbs more than Mao was pushing it for playing the cute and sweetness.

    It is quite a feat for Mao to beat a world champion on her first senior event. I hope she learns to control her nerves and places on top at worlds 07, in Japan
    This is a thread to talk about COC sp. Some people talked about they are not as impress with Irina, some do, some people talked about they are not totally impressed with Mao, some are impressed. That is how discussion goes. I was staying on topic according to the regs of GS, so why did you start it. In what way was I bashing you in #18.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl

    Am I forever to be the lone GSer who gets called out by our Resident Cartman and #1 Rgirl Basher, the Great Gezando? .......
    I was not calling you out, so what is the deal about “forever the lone Gser who gets called out” yadda yadda yawn yawn BS BS pile on the emoticons.

    When people disagree with you about Irina, you did not launch an attack, so why the attack because I disagree with Shine.

    Including a smiley face and being histrionic is not mutually exclusive IMO. In fact IMO, for some poster (cough cough excuse me) the higher the histrionic index goes (oh just watch the rate of increase of all those emoticons, just watch all the excessive display of emotions, yada yada BS BS) , the more grand a time s/he is experiencing, what a “fine fettle” indeed. Evidently calling another poster a name then claiming that to be a joke must floats the boat.
    Last edited by gezando; 11-16-2005 at 07:17 PM.

  14. #44
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    Carmen for men is another tiresome book to read. Escamillio was an egotist and one never feels he is truly in love with Carmen so her murder is insignifant in his life as he enters the bull ring where he delights the crowd. So many boys who use the Toreador confuse it with a warrior. It's just a star on stage.

    I'd like to see a man skate the Don Jose part. - Not easy for them to show the jealousy, the madness, the need to kill, and the heartbreak.
    I have never read the book Carmen. Generally speaking it is tough to modify a story to an opera. That is where a good librettist comes in, e.g. Boito did a fine job of condensing Shakespeare’s Otello for Verdi. Da Ponte did a great job in adapting Beaumarchais’ Marriage of Figaro for the opera. IMO it is even more difficult to skate to an opera that is so well known. Lori did a different approach by using the Card trio from Act 3 for Michelle’s program by making a point it was about the Fate of Carmen.

    I agree most male skaters try to use Escamillio’s bullfight music, and the essence of Don Jose is tough to capture for a skating program
    Last edited by gezando; 11-16-2005 at 04:57 PM.

  15. #45
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    Gez,
    We both stated our cases. I feel mine is complete as is and so will move on. :boohoo: :banging:

    Rgirl

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