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Thread: Ladies SP from TV - COC

  1. #16
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm
    Shizuka didn't finish 11th at 2005 Worlds---that was Joannie Rochette.

    Shizuka was 9th--a big drop, and even lower than the 8th she finished in 2003. But if she went from 8th to 1st, she could recoup and go back up this year.

    Back in 2004, the one expected to make the biggest splash was Miki Ando. She won 2004 Junior Worlds and finished 4th at 2004 Worlds, almost pushing Kwan off the podium.

    But last year, Miki seemed to have lost her focus. Shizuka stole Miki's thunder in 2004, but Miki wasn't able to distinguish herself in her first season on the GP, even while Shizuka herself seemed to be going through a post-championship letdown. Maybe that's why the JF put Mao in the GP a season before she was eligible for ISU championships, so she could make adjustments to Seniors before the pressure was on to deliver results.
    This all makes perfect sense in terms of why the JF may have decided to move Mao up to seniors this year, even though she is not Oly eligible. A good longer term plan, if that is indeed the plan. I can't imagine Shiz and Fumie staying in the game after this season (but of course that's up to them!!) And certainly at this point in time, Mao can absolutely hold her own among the "big girls."

    This decision to move Mao to Seniors created an interesting opportunity for Yu-Na Kim, who thus far appears to be cleaning up in the JGP. Assuming she is able to keep that up through Jr. World's, what a nice confidence builder for her prior to her Sr. debut next season (I'm assuming).

    I'm also really looking forward to seeing Miki at COR and NHK. I know there were mixed reactions to her FP at the Japan Invitational. I personally liked the "new look" but it might be too "soft" of music....I don't know other than I liked it. It will be interesting to see how the program has evolved during the long gap between the JI and COR. What did you think (assuming you saw it over the net or wherever)?

    I love the drama of the Oly season, but I am equally looking forward to the start of the next 4 year cycle!!

    DG

  2. #17
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    What is the argument about? We are all agreed -- friends of Irina and foes alike -- that this was the most outstanding short program performance in the (modern ) history of skating. Why shouldn't she get scores that match?
    Mathman
    Not quite 'ALL'. I'm still going with Kwan's East of Eden. I still like the classic spiral.

    Joe

  3. #18
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    Mao has unbelievable ease in everything she does. But her presentation is just "too light" for my taste and I didn't really like the cutesey things she's doing in her program. An amazing skater nevertheless.
    I like her light presentation, it seems like she can almost take flight, and there is nothing to weigh her down. I don't mind the cutesey, things she is doing. I think Mao has amazing musicality for her age. I think she interprets Carmen well. I agree with one of the moderators here who advocated that skaters should perform the essence of the opera, and not try to tell the story of the opera in four mins. Carmen is an archetye of a seductress. Kat Witt seduces with her winks and wiggles that oozes with sexual powers. Kat Witt's Carmen seduces and gets her way with big time flirt. I think Mao seduces and gets her way with cute wink, wiggles that oozes with wit, like e.g. Despina from Cosi fan tutte. I believe Despina was just a teenager like Mao. IMO 15 y/o Mao's Carmen is more interesting, compare to e.g the boring interpretation from a 17 y/oCohen.

    I don't think 15 year old Mao is overdosing us on her cuteness, since she looks younger than 15, IMO she can still get away with it. Actually Irina's LP from 96 with those light blue feather on her costume was so sweet that I was afraid someone may go into a diabetic coma just by watching it. And a 16 year old Irina who weighed at least 20 lbs more than Mao was pushing it for playing the cute and sweetness.

    It is quite a feat for Mao to beat a world champion on her first senior event. I hope she learns to control her nerves and places on top at worlds 07, in Japan
    Last edited by gezando; 11-15-2005 at 04:41 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezando
    I like her light presentation, it seems like she can almost take flight, and there is nothing to weigh her down. I don't mind the cutesey, things she is doing. I think Mao has amazing musicality for her age. I think she interprets Carmen well. Since the philosophy of GS is that skaters should skate to the essence of the music, not the story of the opera. Carmen is an archetye of a seductress. Kat Witt seduces with her winks and wiggles that oozes with sexual powers. Kat Witt's Carmen seduces and gets her way with big time flirt. I think Mao seduces and gets her way with cute wink, wiggles that oozes with wit, like e.g. Despina from Cosi fan tutte. I believe Despina was just a teenager like Mao. IMO 15 y/o Mao's Carmen is more interesting, compare to e.g the boring interpretation from a 17 y/oCohen.

    I don't think 15 year old Mao is overdosing us on her cuteness, since she looks younger than 15, IMO she can still get away with it. Actually Irina's LP from 96 with those light blue feather on her costume was so sweet that I was afraid someone may go into a diabetic coma just by watching it. And a 16 year old Irina who weighed at least 20 lbs more than Mao was pushing it for playing the cute and sweetness.

    It is quite a feat for Mao to beat a world champion on her first senior event. I hope she learns to control her nerves and places on top at worlds 07, in Japan
    "Since the philosophy of GS is that skaters should skate to the essence of the music, not the story of the opera." Speak for yourself! If there's a "philosophy of GS" other than the rules set down by the administrator and mods, I want nooooo part of it. I'll decide for myself, thanks.

    But as long as you brought it up, no I don't want the story of the opera in four minutes, but I do want some correlation between the skater and the "character" or "feel" of the opera. Witt was a mature sexual woman when she did "Carmen" and sexuality became part of her professional skating persona. Worked for me in '88. Debi Thomas was also a mature sexual woman in '88. She took a non-character driven athletic approach. Although it's difficult to speculate, even if Thomas had skated well, I think I would have preferred some essence of the character of "Carmen" in her skating. At any rate, at least they were matched in terms of age and "Carmen" as a subject also reflected their ages. I wouldn't know about experience.

    And yes, Gez, [EDIT] certain ones of us whom I have not asked if I may use their names [EDIT] have known for a long time that for you it wasn't, "The Olys are coming," to quote Joe, but that it was "Asada is coming!" Of course you're entitled to your opinion, negative or positive. And I know more than a few of us have noticed, appreciatively so and to your credit, the restraint you've shown over the past couple of months from the constant Sasha bashing--unless the issue is Sasha, then IMO, have at her, if that's what floats your boat. Since Asada skated to "Carmen" I'd say that qualifies talk about anybody who ever skated to it. Now try to relax and I dare ya to go comment on my post in the "COC Ladies LP on TV" thread. IMO, what's bad for Mao's "Carmen" is good for her "Clara."

    **************
    Chuckm--thanks for the correction on Shizuka's placement at '05 Worlds. I dinked one of my faves three places!

    ***************
    Gkelly--You are totally correct about what Irina did in her '98 Olympic SP and that she didn't "totally bomb it" as I said in a fit of bad wording. I'll reword that to "had a flub on her opening combo and didn't skate up to the level of the choreography."

    **************
    Linny--I agree. Given a choice between 15 yrs old, no make-up/cloying, which is not the same as cute, and gobs of make-up/vamping, I'll take the former. But my preference for 15 is no make-up, and genuine. Think gymnast Shannon Miller at 15 or, IMO, Irina at 16.

    ******************
    Mathman--the question was the point total for Irina's SP and how you said in Post #54, p4 of "Cup of China Ladies SP":

    "Irina did not just get the best short program score of this event. She got the highest short program score in the history of figure skating.

    "I didn't look this up to see if it is literally true (but I think it is). However, if you look at the Code of Points in detail, Irina's point total is not only higher than anything Michelle, Sasha, Shizuka or anyone else has ever done (I don't count Sasha's string of 197s in the first experimental year of CoP scoring--Rgirl says, "Conveniently for your argument, even though I agree Sasha's '03 GP events were not judged by the same PCS standards the judges are using now. OTOH, the highest spin, FW, or spiral level you could get then was 3.") -- it is higher than anything Michelle, Sasha, Shizuka or anyone else can possibly get, no matter what they do." How do you know? I know, let me look into my crystal ball of what is possible and you'll say, "Because the judges will never give any of them anywhere near the PCS scores they gave Irina." Probably so, but that doesn't mean Irina can't pop a jump or fall.

    "Comparing Irina's score to the men from last years Worlds, Irina beat Takahashi, Griazev, Weir, Sandhu, Van der Perren and Goebel (beautiful skaters, one and all)." Rgirl says, "Yes, all beautiful and inconsistent male skaters, with the possible exception of Weir, who is consistent when healthy, but does not have a quad.

    So just what is the question? It seems to me to be why certain people are having a cow over Irina's COC SP score. Well, why shouldn't the reigning World Champion who has been on the World podium every year except during her "dark" phase in the late '90s and in '03 due to illness, has an Olympic silver medal, and has had two years to study, compete in, and incorporate the COP not receive the highest SP score since--and I think this is the correct wording--the ISU made changes to the way the component elements were judged, which began in the '04/05 season. Not "in the history of modern figure skating." When, precisiely, O man of irrefutable numbers, did modern figure skating start?

    Irina doubled a flip (I think it was) in her LP at COC; we still don't know if her vasculitis and pericarditis may have effects on her overall endurance; and we won't know until the last skater of the ladies free skate skates what irina or anybody else will do or what exact scores they will get. The OGM could be decided by 1/10th of a point. Get excited; go, "Oh, wow!"; say, "Good for Irina!"; say, "Damn that Irina!"; grumble and investigate the judges' scores, but please, if you care to have me around at all, stop having cows. Watching Mathman give birth to a cow via midcow delivery is a beautiful thing if it's your cow. But it just makes me go "OWEE!" to watch.

    Speaking of questions, I put this in another thread, but this seems to be where the action is:
    During COC ladies LP, Peter Carruthers, while explaining the NJS, said there is "a technical panel and a program components panel." Later on, Susie Wynne referred to "the technical panel." I know separating the tech and PC judges into two panels was discussed last year, but has it been implemented? If so, how so?

    Rgirl

    Anything that can walk can be too cute.--Anonymous
    Last edited by Rgirl; 11-16-2005 at 06:54 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Rgirl - I love your 'wink and a wiggle' remark and I agree with your description. She's young. However, that wink and wiggle got Tara a gold medal, imo.

    Anyone: Does she have another GP? If so, I think she'll be in the Final.
    Several people agreed with my description, but, oh, sigh! Am I forever to be the lone GSer who gets called out by our Resident Cartman and #1 Rgirl Basher, the Great Gezando? Oh, I do hope so! Considering the source, I like it. Never give up on me, Gez! People love me for it!

    But I disagree with you, Joe, that the "wink and a wiggle" got Tara the OGM. IMO, what got her the OGM was the 3lo/3lo; skating with good speed, great verve, and energy; having a very well-choreographed program by Sandra Bezic (better than Lori's "Lyra" for a competitive program--again, JMO); a great total package (music, costume, very little make-up) appropriate to her age and demeanor (I'd bet my bottom dollar that the judges had no idea the music from "The Rainbow" was from the film of the DH Lawrence va-va-voom novel The Rainbow--one of the advantages of using non-warhorse music), a relatively weak performance by Michelle (I know, she'd had the toe injury and the cast on until just before Nats); and Tara coming in as the reigning World Champion.

    "The Rainbow" doesn't lend itself to "winks and wiggles," not that that ever stops anybody who is determined to w&w, but I just don't think Tara ever did in that program, or as a competitor in general. She winked, wiggled, and a lot more once she got to SOI, but as a competitor, Tara was all business from what I saw.

    Now the K&C scream heard 'round the world, that's another story.

    Rgirl
    Last edited by Rgirl; 11-15-2005 at 05:23 AM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    This all makes perfect sense in terms of why the JF may have decided to move Mao up to seniors this year [over Miki Ando], even though she is not Oly eligible. A good longer term plan, if that is indeed the plan. I can't imagine Shiz and Fumie staying in the game after this season (but of course that's up to them!!) And certainly at this point in time, Mao can absolutely hold her own among the "big girls."....
    I was wondering what had happened to Ando, the once and former future "it" girl. Seriously, a few genes for height and weight going up too much must be devastating for these girls who no doubt not only love their sport, but who have also invested so much into it. Plus the probable sense of letting down the family and the country!

    Remember when Midori Ito apologized to the entire country of Japan for not having skated better in the SP at the '92 Olympics? The heartbreak! I can't remember where she ended up after the short but I know it was not as high as expected because she attempted the 3Axel and fell. So sad. But in the long, after she'd missed her first attempted 3Axel and 3 minutes into the program nailed her second try, man, that is one stupendous Olympic memory.

    OT, but does anybody know how Midori's health is these days?

    Rgirl

  7. #22
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Rgirl, you are in fine fettle this morning, but what are you picking on me for? Here is my position on Irina's scores (post #12 above)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    What is the argument about? We are all agreed -- friends of Irina and foes alike -- that this was the most outstanding short program performance in the (modern ) history of skating. Why shouldn't she get scores that match?
    Modern = after 2004 (or any time after Sasha got that 197 that blows a hole in my case, LOL).

    Anyway, I am on the side of the Angels (Irina = "peace" in Greek) on this one. I never said anything about Irina's scores being higher than she deserved, or that there was a conspiracy to hold her up and hand her the gold medal.

    When I said that I don't think there is anything that Sasha, Michelle, Shizuka or anyone else can do to match the scores that Irina is putting up, I am looking at the list of point values for the CoP. Obviously Irina can screw up, but that's a separate question. The question is, is it realistic to hope that Michelle, for instance, can raise her spins to a level 4, work in a triple/triple, get fancier connecting steps, etc. -- and if she does, and you add up all the little .5s and .7s that she will gain by doing so, will that be enough to match Irina's point total? (Or Sasha or Shizuka.)

    ...you'll say, "Because the judges will never give any of them anywhere near the PCS scores they gave Irina."
    How can you put such silly words in my mouth, the opposite of what I have said about ten times on these several Irina threads?

    If they skate as well as Irina, they will get high scores, too. So far this season, no one has.

    MM
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-15-2005 at 08:15 AM.

  8. #23
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    Rgirl - Let's agree to disagree on Tara. Whether it's 98 Ladies or SLC Pairs nothing will change anyone's mind.

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Rgirl, you are in fine fettle this morning, but what are you picking on me for? Here is my position on Irina's scores (post #12 above)



    Modern = after 2004 (or any time after Sasha got that 197 that blows a hole in my case, LOL).

    Anyway, I am on the side of the Angels (Irina = "peace" in Greek) on this one. I never said anything about Irina's scores being higher than she deserved, or that there was a conspiracy to hold her up and hand her the gold medal.

    When I said that I don't think there is anything that Sasha, Michelle, Shizuka or anyone else can do to match the scores that Irina is putting up, I am looking at the list of point values for the CoP. Obviously Irina can screw up, but that's a separate question. The question is, is it realistic to hope that Michelle, for instance, can raise her spins to a level 4, work in a triple/triple, get fancier connecting steps, etc. -- and if she does, and you add up all the little .5s and .7s that she will gain by doing so, will that be enough to match Irina's point total? (Or Sasha or Shizuka.)

    How can you put such silly words in my mouth, the opposite of what I have said about ten times on these several Irina threads?

    If they skate as well as Irina, they will get high scores, too. So far this season, no one has.

    MM
    Ok, based on all of that, I'll be sending all the gold medals to Irina. Everyone else I'll just draw out of a hat for medals. I don't really believe that anyway.

    I am not one of those "all" who think Irina had some kind of spectacular SP for the ages. I have always liked Irina, but she is boring me to no end this year. And Mao Asada was cute. And Shizuka finally showed up. And I love Elena as well.

    However all this catch foot spin/spiral crap is starting to wear on me. I long to be able to see one skater go there an entire SP and/or LP without catching their blade. I know it's all about the points, but Irina was a half beat behind her LP music and finished a half beat behind it. She may skate fast, have amazing jumps and can Bielmann until the cows come home, but what she doesn't have is the matching luggage to go with that traveling. She's got no musical connectivity in these programs. She has more in the SP, but hey, I didn't like it either so whatever.

    And despite what some people are saying out there in figure skating land, Irina does not do well with flamenco/Latin flavored music. She just doesn't fit it although I loved her outfit and the beautiful red color. To me, she's going to win the OGM because she's doing catch foot spins/spirals everywhere.

    Plus I couldn't believe Shizuka did the same spins either. So maybe it's time that someone out there, maybe Michelle or Sasha, start overusing the Y-spin which, I believe, gives the same Level as the Bielmann. Can you do a Y-spiral? So watching Irina's LP last night made me yawn. Watching Divakawa and Elena at least perked me up.

    ETA: FWIW, I didn't like Tara's program in 98 either but I'd have to get mean to say why, so I just won't.
    Last edited by swannanoa54; 11-15-2005 at 10:46 AM.

  10. #25
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Realistic, you didn't like Irina's short program? I thought it was one of the best perormances of her career, along with her Worlds LP.

    I may have to eat my words when we see Sasha this weekend, but so far Irina is the one who has put it on the ice. For the rest, we can only wait and see.

    Mathman

  11. #26
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    I liked Irina's short program as well. So clean and explosive. Last year's SP was more playful and musical, but this one really packs a punch! In fact, all of the ladies' shown on ESPN skated well. I even enjoyed Liashenko, 'bird chirps' and all, and am starting to appreciate Maksim Mrvica's music. And Mao Asada as 'Happy Carmen' was quite refreshing.

  12. #27
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    realistic - Thank god, there is someone besides me who is not overwhelmed with little girls dressing up like mommie.

    As to all those yawning spins. Check out Czisny. Can't wait to see her against Irina in the final. The classic spiral returns!!!!!

    Joe

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    Spin wise, I think Alissa beats Irina.
    But overall, can Alissa really compete with Irina? Alissa's score at Canada was so much lower than Irina's at China.

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    "Since the philosophy of GS is that skaters should skate to the essence of the music, not the story of the opera." Speak for yourself! If there's a "philosophy of GS" other than the rules set down by the administrator and mods, I want nooooo part of it. I'll decide for myself, thanks.
    IIRC Joesitz has been consistently posting about skating to the essence of the opera and not the story, that made an impression on me, and so I followed up on that train of thought. Yes, I speak for myself, and I have deleted / edited that in my post # 18.

    I think I would have preferred some essence of the character of "Carmen" in her skating. At any rate, at least they were matched in terms of age and "Carmen" as a subject also reflected their ages
    Well, I have no problem with the essence of the character and matched in age when it comes to opera music interpretation on ice. But since Mao in this case is skating to the music and there is no libretto, I can imagine Carmen as an archetype of a seductress, and Mao seduces with her cuteness and wit just like Despina from Cosi fan tutte. IMO, skating to music w/o words still gives me the option of not thinking about age matching. Since you brought it up, IMO when a 15 y/o Cohen (who was shaped like a 10 y/o at the time) skated to the words of One Fne Day, that left no option but to think of the meaning of the words, that Madame Butterfly wanted to jump Pinkerton’s bones and make love. IMO the Un Bel Di program from Cohen was

    Since Asada skated to "Carmen" I'd say that qualifies talk about anybody who ever skated to it Now try to relax
    IMO, Cohen’s interpretation of Carmen is the most boring among senior lady skaters, she was not skating to the essence of the character or the music. I have been totally relax, and staying on topic on #18. rgirl whatever happen to your willingness to "suck it up" afterall you are the originator of the "suck it up" campaign.

    And yes, Gez, we've known for a long time that for you it wasn't, "The Olys are coming," to quote Joe, but that it was "Asada is coming!"
    "we"??? didn't you dish out in #19, that each poster should only speak for himself/ herself .

    I dare ya to go comment on my post in the "COC Ladies LP on TV" thread. IMO, what's bad for Mao's "Carmen" is good for her "Clara.”
    I haven’t watched the tape of LP yet, I may go to the LP thread or I may not, what is the big deal with such histrionics about daring me to comment on your post over there . In #18, I was posting Shine’s comments on #6, when I post on #18, I haven’t read through your massive production on this thread yet, sometimes I do not read in chronological order. Now I see, why ya thought I was commenting on your post, because I quoted “wink and wiggle”. Sigh …I saw that from Joesitz's #9.

    Several people agreed with my description, but, oh, sigh! Am I forever to be the lone GSer who gets called out ..
    In some way I agree with your term wink and wiggle too, although at first I thought Joesitz was the originator of wink and wiggle. I said Kat’s wink and wiggle oozes with sexual powers, and Mao’s wink and wiggle oozes with wit. so how on earth can you went off topic, and twisted that into “lone Gser gets call out by gezando..”

    #1 Rgirl Basher, the Great Gezando?
    I was staying on topic, talking about COC sp, I was even accidentally agreeing with your term, how does that equate to bashing you? Can you be more dramatic and colorful, talk about bashing. OTOH, IMO when a poster (were you that poster? ) told Jimmy Hoffa here at GS “For a b!t ^h (all 5 letters spelled out) you are consistent, I give you that” Now that is bashing!!!!

    People love me….
    How is that relevant to the topic of COC sp? I already edited / deleted " it is a GS philosophy" from #18. Now will you take your own medicine and relax.

    Back to topic: By coincidence both Irina and Arakawa chose pieces of piano music transcribed for symphony. Irina's sp is growing on me. I still think this symphonic version of totentanz (derived from Dies Irae) is boring music, but no one can pull it off like Irina. She accomplished it with her amazing athletic power. Arakawa made the symphonic version of Chopin's PC #1 work well, althought I still prefer Lucindah's piano version.
    Last edited by gezando; 11-15-2005 at 06:33 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Realistic, you didn't like Irina's short program? I thought it was one of the best perormances of her career, along with her Worlds LP.

    I may have to eat my words when we see Sasha this weekend, but so far Irina is the one who has put it on the ice. For the rest, we can only wait and see.

    Mathman
    Sorry, MM, ...no, I'm not sorry. I don't like either of her programs. I like her SP better than her LP but that's not saying much at all. And while I will give her credit for having a dynamic SP, I don't have to like it. Now, her Worlds LP...HOO RAH! Yep, liked that one. But Irina's programs this year just leave me :sheesh:

    And as far as Sasha's LP goes, after seeing it, I was highly disappointed with the cuts of the music. I loved her R&J exhibition, thought it was well suited for her, wanted it to be an LP at some point, and then she goes and gets those scrambly cuts. Whatever. I'd like to see her SP since I understand it's a new one, right?

    joesitz, that's one of the reasons I didn't like Tara, but the others are so mean that even I surprise myself.

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