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Thread: Men's Free Skate

  1. #31
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    Brian's getting raked over the coals for his outspoken words after this event, but I love it. Damn it turns into a dreary snoozefest when all of the skaters say the same boring lines over and over and over and....

    Brian is PISSED the quad isn't getting more points. He's worked his entire career to master it (admittedly they've been a bit more 'slippery' the past year than previously), and grew up admiring the Russian champions that could peel them off successfully over and over and over....

    He's one of the skaters that sees skating as a bit more of an athletic event than an artistic one, and COP is drubbing him on that stance. In his defense he has worked his *** off the past six months to get better at his spins and learn more intricate footwork, etc. I rue the day we see the next man atop the Olympic podium who not only doesn't manage a quad at the entire event....but doesn't even squeak out a clean triple-axel. But then again, I may be one of those rare people who Buttle's skating does absolutely nothing for, but it's not because I'm biased against a Canadian champion as I adore Sandhu and am really digging Rochette. But Buttle as the future of men's skating? I hope not.

  2. #32
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    breaks my heart to see Tim just off the podium

    and Mikey :(

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanzibar
    But then again, I may be one of those rare people who Buttle's skating does absolutely nothing for, but it's not because I'm biased against a Canadian champion as I adore Sandhu and am really digging Rochette. But Buttle as the future of men's skating? I hope not.
    I'm with you on the :sheesh: for Buttle. His skating, posing, facial expressions and posturing do nothing for me. If you're rare, so am I.......

  4. #34
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    Based on the video clips:

    Buttle: WOW, what an interpretation again!!! And his choreography is sooo beautiful... It though disturbs me a lot in this new system that with so many mistakes in jumping a skater is getting such high scores. A totally balanced skater should be an ideal, and Jeff lacks a quad and a triple axel... In this event it is really funny if one compares the ladies winner to men´s winner technically... The scoring system still needs some changes!

    Joubert: Compared to previous season´s choreography there is an improvement in this one in the sense that it really tries to make him look less wooden. It though does not succeed totally, in my opinion. In my eyes this choreography also looks old-fashioned compared to Buttle´s CoP-friendly one. I have always found the toe-picking footwork boring and lots of times also really ridiculous looking....
    Last edited by Jaana; 11-20-2005 at 03:47 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana
    In my eyes this choreography also looks old-fashioned compared to Buttle´s CoP-friendly one. I have always found the toe-picking footwork boring and lots of times also really ridiculous looking....
    I had been trying to figure out what quality it was about Joubert's programs in the last two years that made his skating leave me cold, and that's exactly it. His last two LP's have looked dated. (Although he's improved a lot in the spins department.) Lots of stroke, stroke, stroke into jumps.

    Live, he still has power, and that is what most impressed me in his TEB program, because it's so visceral. But the contents, ugh. Although given the theme, I'm surprised there was a little toe stepping as there was. But the program doesn't hold together; it's a bunch of disparate elements.

    After the Men's program ended, the press swarmed him, and he was on camera for over 15 minutes, which is quite long. I figured he must have been saying something to hold their interest

    Chiper was wonderful; I'm glad he skated a strong LP to earn a medal. I hope the French media took the opportunity to interview the entire French-speaking podium.

    I really like Contesti, too. That kid can dance, and he moves very well across the ice. And Dobrin has fire in his belly, but enough elegance to temper what could be dramatic excesses.

  6. #36
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    Hockeyfan - I forgot that you were there. How badly was Buttle's errors? It seems from the posts that it was a battle between choreographies.

    Joe

  7. #37
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    Chiper: I was very happy that he medalled! WOW, really enjoyable interpretation, very suitable music for him. I think this was the programme I enjoyed most of all men in Bombard event.

    Weiss: His techic was not good, but he sure can interpret music and also has charisma!!! And I loved his long hair...

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    How badly was Buttle's errors?
    Joe
    I´d put it like this: He might not have medalled in ladies´ event...
    Last edited by Jaana; 11-20-2005 at 07:33 AM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    good for you Herios. That is my point in discussing cultural bias. The US and Canada are a mixed bag of cultures and fans of any kind of sports and entertainment take on diverse views. Just how many fans of Jeffrey Buttle will one find in Bucharest?

    Joe
    Not many Joe, I bet. Skating is so little known, spread and seen in Romania, probably I could count 20-25 more popular sports in a few seconds....
    In the old days (system), we used to see skating only at the Olympics, so every 4 years! These days, coverage is much better, because the Eurosport on cable.
    Skating arenas I could count on my fingers (at one hand), just think that our hockey league was composed always of the same 4 teams, from 3 cities, playing each other to death in the championship. And this is a country of 22 millions...and pretty good achievements in sports in general.

    I was lucky enough to live on the Hungarian border, where I could see coverage on their TV of all Euros, most of the Worlds and all the Olympics is skating.

    Considering all these, the accomplishment for example of Cornel Gheorghe (8th at Worlds in 1993 at Prague) is quite something!
    Chiper I know lives and trains in Switzerland, where he has much better conditions and I hope with this result under his belt, he will get his confidence up, so he could repeat such results.

    Herios - Joseph
    Last edited by herios; 11-20-2005 at 01:24 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasey
    I'm with you on the :sheesh: for Buttle. His skating, posing, facial expressions and posturing do nothing for me. If you're rare, so am I.......
    Count me in as well. I made a mistake to post something last year to the effect that his choice of music for long (Phillip Glass?) did nothing for me and then I got accused of not understanding music! I guess being anti-Canadian is next.

    Like Jaana, it bothers me that such high scores are awarded for a skater who makes so many mistakes.

    Yana

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by STL_Blues_fan
    Count me in as well. I made a mistake to post something last year to the effect that his choice of music for long (Phillip Glass?) did nothing for me and then I got accused of not understanding music! I guess being anti-Canadian is next.

    Like Jaana, it bothers me that such high scores are awarded for a skater who makes so many mistakes.

    Yana
    It's a matter of taste, Yana. One doesn't have to love anything but the classics, but to remain in good taste, one should not knock the modernists. I don't like all Glass the same as I don't like all Verdi.

    Joe

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    It's a matter of taste, Yana. One doesn't have to love anything but the classics, but to remain in good taste, one should not knock the modernists. I don't like all Glass the same as I don't like all Verdi.

    Joe
    Joe, I agree 100%. And I never slammed down Glass. Everyone is entitled to their taste. I prefer the classics but I do enjoy 20th century composers such as Khachaturian. On the other hand, I do not enjoy Miakovsky. I do not know a lot about Glass but once again, what I heard did not move me. But that did not give some individuals the right to question my understanding of music!

    Yana

  12. #42
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    Regarding Buttle:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana
    I´d put it like this: He might not have medalled in ladies´ event...
    Good point and a humorous one too!!!

    Regarding Joubert:

    It's not that I can't see the flaws in Brian's skating - of course he's not perfect and certainly not an uber 'artiste' in the sense of Weir, Sandhu and probably now Takahashi. But when I look at the present state of figure skating - which is this: It's an Olympic season and the networks cannot be 'bothered' with airing the major competitions - the sport has been relegated to 1-2 weeks after the fact on ESPN.

    I see Brian as someone who would be such an amazing ambassador for the sport and who could bring in immense amounts of people around the globe with his charisma, screen-idol good looks, boy-next-door mentality and his overall accessability i.e....the kid is just NOT a diva. He has this big explosive talent that hopefully he'll be able to re-harness and display once again in time for Torino. It's this swarm of ever-changing advisors around him that has left him somewhat distracted on so many fronts and all too often.

    Some people (and that includes many at the top of skating) believe that the Olympic gold medal should be a sort of 'lifetime acheivement award' regardless of that skater's particular performance that evening. Others believe it should be completely up for grabs and whoever has the most points rightfully gets the title. There is a third perspective respectfully taking both of those positions into regard, which is: with a sport that is only consistently losing 'draw', it desperately needs a mens and a ladies (I think we've seen that Pairs and Ice Dance just don't count nearly as much with the general public) champion that can have broad, broad appeal - and that includes an ability to interest potential women and men viewers/ticket buyers/supporters from all over the globe. Personally, I think Joubert could be that champion.
    Last edited by Zanzibar; 11-20-2005 at 03:16 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Hockeyfan - I forgot that you were there. How badly was Buttle's errors? It seems from the posts that it was a battle between choreographies.

    Joe
    Not exactly. Joubert really doesn't have any choreography or transitions, which is one of the things that killed him. He's a 6.0 skater. The other is having Stojko-like power, and although not as stocky a line as Stojko, he refuses to move his upper body on the spiral, and while he's got the Guy thing in common with Stojko, he doesn't have the Vision Thing that Stojko had. (Like or dislike it, Stojko tried to fuse martial arts movements with figure skating.) I was hoping that with all of the back movements in Matrix that he might open his mind a little, but he went backwards, in my opinion. Sometimes I think he's channeling Gary Beacom in "I'm Your Man," and not in a good way.

    Chiper's is very appealing, and he performs it with joie de vivre.

    Buttle has amazing choreography. The first time I saw the program, from the bootlegs at Thornhill, I thought it was a miss, with too many musical cuts. But it didn't feel that way in person, partly because of the way Buttle moves around the ice and uses so much of it. Lots of little things make perfect musical sense once you can see them all. He messed up on a bunch of his jumps, but it was pretty exciting the way he attacked the 4T. He was tentative on both 3A attempts, which is why I think the jumps failed. His 3Lu in combination was amazingly soft, as was one of other jumps in combo (maybe a Sal). He moves very softly across the ice, too, using his blades expertly. I also thought when I first saw it that the final piece of music was too slow, but it's perfect for the flowing footwork sequence.

    I suspect that the Schoenberg is having an interesting effect on the judges. On the one hand, it's not the most likeable music, but downgrading it makes one look like a Phillistine, and, on the other hand, it's a welcome palate cleanser to all of those soundtracks and techno pieces.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanzibar
    I see Brian as someone who would be such an amazing ambassador for the sport and who could bring in immense amounts of people around the globe with his charisma, screen-idol good looks, boy-next-door mentality and his overall accessability i.e....the kid is just NOT a diva. He has this big explosive talent that hopefully he'll be able to re-harness and display once again in time for Torino...

    Some people (and that includes many at the top of skating) believe that the Olympic gold medal should be a sort of 'lifetime acheivement award' regardless of that skater's particular performance that evening. Others believe it should be completely up for grabs and whoever has the most points rightfully gets the title. There is a third perspective respectfully taking both of those positions into regard, which is: with a sport that is only consistently losing 'draw', it desperately needs a mens and a ladies (I think we've seen that Pairs and Ice Dance just don't count nearly as much with the general public) champion that can have broad, broad appeal - and that includes an ability to interest potential women and men viewers/ticket buyers/supporters from all over the globe. Personally, I think Joubert could be that champion.
    All sports are in that predicament. The NBA would love to see the Knicks and the Lakers in the finals every year. But they don't always get what they want (Detroit - San Antonio was a dud at the box office last year.)

    A competitive sport absolutely cannot allow the idea to seep into the public perception that they might bend the scoring system because a particular competitor has boyish charm and matinee idol looks.

    (That doesn't prevent us from hoping, however, LOL.)

    About the quad, I think overall I disagree with Brian and with many others who think the quad is not sufficiently rewarded in the NJS. Not only do you get huge points for a quad (9 point for a quad toe vs. 4 points for a triple, for instance), but it also gives you the chance to load up the rest of your program with triples and combos without running into Zayak problems. If you don't have a quad you have to waste one of your jumping passes with a double Axel, or something of the sort.

    IMHO what Brian needs to do in terms of choreography is get off his toes and down into the ice, like Plushenko or Weir or Slutskaya (or even Sandhu).

    It would be a crime to waste that smile on a mere silver medalist.

    MM

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    I suspect that the Schoenberg is having an interesting effect on the judges. On the one hand, it's not the most likeable music, but downgrading it makes one look like a Phillistine...
    The Emperor's new clothes: if you can't see their fine qualities you are not fit to hold your high psoition at court.

    MM

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