- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Mathman said:
ITA, Mathman... the CoP might be what skating needs in a lot of ways...
what always gets my attention is the fact that many of the pro skaters are behind this new system. I think Scott Hamilton's teh only one that's come out and said he doesn't like it... but Paul Wylie has praised it, Sale and Pelletier praised it early on... maybe there's something to this
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
Red Dog said:
Skating was already a sport... just because something prided itself on being beautiful, didn't make it any less athletic or demanding... just cooler.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
soogar said:
The popularity of skating began its decline post SLC... but if one were to argue that the USFS is damaging the sport by hanging its hat on its Champion, I would add that viewership began its total nosedive AFTER said bore began to skate less at televised events... just a thought.
In terms of the future of skating itself, I'd like to believe that the sport is bigger than one person... but based on the lack of interest of hard core fans in this Olympic season, for a variety of reasons - some concerning Kwan but more that don't, I'm not so sure...
The future of skating depends on casual fans becoming obsessed and continued sponsor dollars. Issues that go waayy beyond one skater & if one reads the USFS Business Plan, it becomes obvious that the organization doesn't have a clue in creating a new model for the future. I'd say less reliance on "business as usual" and a more NASCAR mentality.
I respect your opinion and understand where you come from, but- isn't that what exhibition pieces are for? Professional skating? I'm really referring to competitive skating here. I have my own personal reasons, but how can one call something that is so subjective a sport?
Perhaps, like other posters have already touched upon, the exhibition pieces and pro skaters can use this to their advantage and focus more on preserving the "old" style of skating, while competitive skating continues to get more athletic and "sport"- like.
I also agree with soogar. Kwan may have a lot of fans, but I think some people need to get their heads out of the sand and realize that KWAN ISN'T FIGURE SKATING. Skating has existed before Kwan's arrival, and will continue to exist after her departure. I don't doubt that the overall amount of viewers might decrease, but rest assured- skating WILL continue. Plus, viewership is decreasing ANYWAY even WITH Kwan around. I don't think we can blame Kwan for this demise.
It wasn't Kwan that brought the viewers- it was the "whack" that did. Once the honeymoon was over, ratings started to fall back to where they were before. Kwan, et al. may have held a few of those extra fans that started watching, but once they leave, we start all over again. Plus, no one can predict the future. Who knows? Something could happen to drum up interest again. Or, skating will just be one of those every-4-years events, like skiing or speed skating.
mzheng- thanks. I wasn't aware of that. Very interesting, actually. And scary, for anyone else.
ITA.Kwanford Wife said:
No one says without kwan there will be no skating. All some ppl here saying is Kwan did bring in a lot fans (especially in US) into amature skating rink during her a dacade competing. Some of them will remain as active FS fan, some may just leave because the star who first caught their eye retiring. Some may hang around for a while for next big thing to come on the scene and catch their interesting again....I for one would not be able to find so much time to spend on FS boards. I guess this is kind of bad news for Ant-Kwan fans, since there is one less poster they can 'snark on'. lol
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I started a tirade of antiKwans when suggesting that her retirement may be another set back in figure skating attendance both live and on TV.
It wasn't meant to be the definitive reason for the set back in figure skating. It will be a factor though along with silly costumed, dumb looking, pro skaters many of whom have Oly medals and all have been Olympians suddenly wanting to turn figure skating into some sort of nonsensical sport.
I think COI and SOI can handle the pro skating exhibitions and choreographed numbers quite well and with a sense of humor without resorting to the antics we saw in Sunday afternoon 'competitions'. Only a child's mind could enjoy that slapstick.
It's an up hill battle to get Pro Skating back on a regular basis and with Kwan retiring there will be a drop in interest with eligible skating. JMO.
NonKwans take note: Of course figure skating will continue, but imo, there will definitely be some luster lost.
Joe
It wasn't meant to be the definitive reason for the set back in figure skating. It will be a factor though along with silly costumed, dumb looking, pro skaters many of whom have Oly medals and all have been Olympians suddenly wanting to turn figure skating into some sort of nonsensical sport.
I think COI and SOI can handle the pro skating exhibitions and choreographed numbers quite well and with a sense of humor without resorting to the antics we saw in Sunday afternoon 'competitions'. Only a child's mind could enjoy that slapstick.
It's an up hill battle to get Pro Skating back on a regular basis and with Kwan retiring there will be a drop in interest with eligible skating. JMO.
NonKwans take note: Of course figure skating will continue, but imo, there will definitely be some luster lost.
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Joesitz said:
:scratch: I don't think so... certainly a lot of interest will go down... I read on MKF a couple of seasons ago that once Michelle quit skating, that was it for their interest. I am still puzzled by this because I was always under the impression that skating was more than one athlete. That'd be like saying "football was only good with Joe Montana was playing" SF 49er football might be able to say that, but there have been many amazing games since his retirement...
just as there will be many great skaters/competitions post-Michelle.
I wonder if maybe the US media will turn its attention to Johnny Weir. I get the MK vibe from him, meaning he's in here until he's ready to be out. We may see him at nationals for eons yet to come and he might sweep it up every year... should he do that, would the US media treat him as they have Kwan? Would it ignite something in US attention to teh sport?
Joesitz said:
Skating was very popular in the late 80's , esp when the skaters from the 1988 Olympics retired. I remember watching all of those pro competitions and the skating was excellent as well. Skating became very crappy after the whack contributed to the proliferation of cheesy pro comps. Though I remember the GP being very interesting in 1997-1998 season when fans were following both Michelle and Tara in the GP (at least the coverage was great, not sure about the ratings).
I think many people would agree with me that the "golden age" of skating was when the 1988 and 1992 skaters turned pro. That group of skaters (Brian Boitano, Kristy Y and others) busted their butts to keep their level of technical skating high and further themselves artistically. Quite frankly, I don't see any of the current crop of skaters retiring and showing that kind of commitment to pro skating. Brian already commented in an interivew that Michelle didn't want to turn pro because she just wants to put her routines out there and compete (either Blades on Ice or IFS). Looking at what little she has put in her skating the past few years, I don't see Michelle setting the pro world on fire if she turns pro.
As for Kwan bringing in fans. I don't think she brought in fans but rather kept fans from the whack. People tuned in to watch the skating from the whack and then became interested in this little girl on the fringe of all the chaos. As a result, people stayed tuned to see her progress.
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- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Red Dog said:
The Irina fans in my area and myself have already done so.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
It's hard to guess how it will all turn out. Just because an activity is athletic and sport-like doesn't mean anyone will want to do it or to watch it.Red Dog said:
Figure skating has always been something of a niche sport. For whatever reason, audiences will pay to see tall people bouncing a rubber ball, but they don't care much about short people leaping about on ice skates.
So what is it that keeps ice skating from disappearing from the sports and entertainment scene altogether? To me, it's the rush that sweeps over you when Michelle Kwan hits her spiral, or when Todd Eldredge lands a huge triple Axel. (OK, maybe you personally don't get off on Todd so much, but anyway...)
Mathman
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Skating is ALREADY on the decline. That's why I don't see the justification for saying that when Kwan is gone, viewership will decrease. Well guess what, guys. It's ALREADY decreasing. In other words, I highly doubt MK leaving will make that much of a difference. However, it might have ripple effects on general interest (i.e. during the Olympics) if the U.S. doesn't have at least one strong contender for gold.
Y'all better knock yourselves out. If history is an indication, however, Irina may not quite have that gold medal in her pocket yet. (Although she is basically holding it and trying to run away with it now.)
Well, you're right, but...err, what makes you think I get off on Michelle? Alright, just kidding.
Y'all better knock yourselves out. If history is an indication, however, Irina may not quite have that gold medal in her pocket yet. (Although she is basically holding it and trying to run away with it now.)
Well, you're right, but...err, what makes you think I get off on Michelle?
Alright, just kidding.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
soogar said:
Many of the ones that turned pro in 94 did the same. Kurt kept up the technical for some years after...
I think the "Golden Age" was longer than just 4-6 years... I think it began to decline after 98... at least that's when pro skating took a nose dive
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Kwanford Wife said:
If the intent of the NJS is to make figure skating "more like other sports," which sports are we trying to emulate? Tobogganing? Ski jumping? Snow shoeing?
Excellent activities, one and all. The paricipants get lots of exercise in the fresh air and they satisfy their competive drive by winning prizes against each other.
Was it the intent of the ISU to make figure skating more like speed skating? If so, it's a Faustian bargain. For better or for worse, figure skating is a performance sport. What does it profit a person to gain the whole world if he loses his own soul?
MM
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2003
Red Dog said:I respect your opinion and understand where you come from, but- isn't that what exhibition pieces are for? Professional skating? I'm really referring to competitive skating here. I have my own personal reasons, but how can one call something that is so subjective a sport?
Perhaps, like other posters have already touched upon, the exhibition pieces and pro skaters can use this to their advantage and focus more on preserving the "old" style of skating, while competitive skating continues to get more athletic and "sport"- like.
I also agree with soogar. Kwan may have a lot of fans, but I think some people need to get their heads out of the sand and realize that KWAN ISN'T FIGURE SKATING. Skating has existed before Kwan's arrival, and will continue to exist after her departure. I don't doubt that the overall amount of viewers might decrease, but rest assured- skating WILL continue. Plus, viewership is decreasing ANYWAY even WITH Kwan around. I don't think we can blame Kwan for this demise.
It wasn't Kwan that brought the viewers- it was the "whack" that did. Once the honeymoon was over, ratings started to fall back to where they were before. Kwan, et al. may have held a few of those extra fans that started watching, but once they leave, we start all over again. Plus, no one can predict the future. Who knows? Something could happen to drum up interest again. Or, skating will just be one of those every-4-years events, like skiing or speed skating.
mzheng- thanks. I wasn't aware of that. Very interesting, actually. And scary, for anyone else.
I am discussing competitive skating not exhibitions. Competitive skating INCLUDES athleticism along with musicality. Therein lies the subjectiveness of the sport. It isn't cut and dried like other sports. And it shouldn't be. I absolutely love Kwan. She is my favorite skater. If and when she retires from competitive skating, I will still be watching figure skating. I will be doing it because I was doing it long before she came on the scene starting with watching Fleming win the Oly gold. I rarely leave my head in the sand because, first of all, I get sand up my nose, and secondly, it makes it hard to breathe.
There are (and I know there are) what I call "fairweather" fans. These are those people who became fans of Kwan not fans of figure skating. And that's well and good. Same with some Cohen and Slutskaya fans. I lost interest in men's skating when Alexei left competitive skating. Well, actually, I lost it when Brian Boitano left.
If I don't watch figure skating next season and Kwan happens to have retired by the, it will be because of COP and nothing else. To me, while COP may be "evening" things up for others, it's taking away the beauty of the sport for me. And that's MY reason. I loved watching Muhammed Ali fight. It wasn't just the boxing, it was the graceful moving around the ring that he did. I loved watching Larry Bird shoot 3 pointers with such smooth movements and a quick flick of the wrist. And Michael Jordan-well, he soared like an eagle. It isn't the athleticism that drives my desire to watch sports. It's those who dare to go outside the box and be connected with the music in their souls (whether there's actual music or not). I suppose no one gets what I mean, but I don't really care.
It's that well timed, well done 3A at the right moment in the music. It's that well timed, huge death drop right at the crescendo of the music where it highlights the music connection to the athletic prowress of the skater. It's that spiral that hits right when it should and carries you along for a ride. And that's NOT what I get anymore. Now it's...oh, here's a Biellmann position, here's donut spin, here's a quad. Here's my points. Woowee, I won and I didn't even hear what I was skating to.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Mathman said:
If the intent of the NJS is to make figure skating "more like other sports," which sports are we trying to emulate? Tobogganing? Ski jumping? Snow shoeing?
Excellent activities, one and all. The paricipants get lots of exercise in the fresh air and they satisfy their competive drive by winning prizes against each other.
Was it the intent of the ISU to make figure skating more like speed skating? If so, it's a Faustian bargain. For better or for worse, figure skating is a performance sport. What does it profit a person to gain the whole world if he loses his own soul?
MM
1) What's a "Faustian bargain?"
2) "The paricipants get lots of exercise in the fresh air and they satisfy their competive drive by winning prizes against each other." That's why I like showing DOGS!!
If they win, I can claim a victory. If they lose, I can blame them, and they have no idea what I'm talking about. Seriously, I really think the popularity of FS, or the lack thereof has little to do with individual skaters, including MK. The TV sports world has been changing, and I think that has affected all televised sports - mainly to the negative. More channels, more selections, diluted ad viewing for all sponsors.
DG
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Red Dog said:
Actually the favorite typically does win, or atleast the very close second favorite. Poetzsch was very close second favorite to Fratianne going into the 1980 Olympics, she had a big rivalry with her, and because of her superiority in compulsory figures was a big danger for World Champion Fratianne. Witt was a very close second favorite to slight favorite Sumners in 1984. Witt was the favorite in 88, although Thomas was a close second to her going in. Yamaguchi was co-favorite with Ito probably going into 1992. Biaul was probably favorite going into 94, although she was a shaky favorite after some inconsistent skating that year, and there were probably 7 or 8 medal contenders that year. The last two were the only times a shooting star stole the show in a major surprise; 98 shouldnt be such a big surprise since Tara was reigning World Champion, 97 U.S Champion, 97 and 98 Grand Prix final Champion and 2nd at U.S nationals and Skate America that year; but Tara had never beaten a clean or close-to-clean Kwan before, and Kwan of course had turned in such momental performances at U.S nationals it set her up as overwhelming favorite. In 2002 Hughes was at best 4th favorite behind Kwan, Slutskaya, and Cohen(probably in that order), barely ahead of Butyrskaya, Suguri, and Volchkova; but came up with the huge come-from-behind win. Still that is only 2 Olympics, it is not like there is a long history of a shooting star pulling off an enormous upset, usually somebody who is strongly considered to win going in does come through and win, often a skater with experience who has paid their dues too.
Also the last two Olympics with the shooting star pulling off the stunning upset, came with Kwan as the favorite, perhaps that is more due to Kwan than a trend.
Then again with Slutskaya failing to medal in 98, and also giving up the gold to the much less favored Hughes in 2002, I had better keep my teasing of Kwan in check. Here's the beef! If Kwan was on top with the new scoring system like she was with the 6.0's, nobody would have any qualms about it. I think that if she was out there skating and ahead of all of the other ladies, I think that everybody would be in their glee about the new scoring system and say that it was the best thing since sliced bread.
Hmmmm...
MZHENG, interesting that when Irina did poorly at Euros she was taken off the steroids just prior to the competition. I would really hate to think that irina is getting a boost from the steroids, and therefore it is increasing her stamina/energy. That would be an unfair advantage. Typically, steroids make you feel miserable, so it is hard to know. As for skating once Michelle leaves, it will no longer be as interesting or as beautiful. I have always loved figure skating. But when Michelle transformed the sport with Salome, Taj Mahal, Rach and Lyra Angelica she ruined it for me in a way. When you have tasted champagne, it is hard to go back to grape juice. Sasha is the closest to her with a unique style all her own. But I suspect this might be her last year too.
MZHENG, interesting that when Irina did poorly at Euros she was taken off the steroids just prior to the competition. I would really hate to think that irina is getting a boost from the steroids, and therefore it is increasing her stamina/energy. That would be an unfair advantage. Typically, steroids make you feel miserable, so it is hard to know. As for skating once Michelle leaves, it will no longer be as interesting or as beautiful. I have always loved figure skating. But when Michelle transformed the sport with Salome, Taj Mahal, Rach and Lyra Angelica she ruined it for me in a way. When you have tasted champagne, it is hard to go back to grape juice. Sasha is the closest to her with a unique style all her own. But I suspect this might be her last year too.
