Biellman varieties _ Biellman TOO many

Should there be a Biellman rule, similar to the Zayak-rule? Geez, I am Biellman saturated. Spin, catch, spiral, yayaya. Come on, aren't there other positions skaters can do?

Have a catch foot http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=56239544&cdi=0

One hand catch
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=56239550&cdi=0

Since when has one-legged skating become the norm? I'd rather see dance steps, bit-o jumps, fast, centered spins.

orchid said:

Since when has one-legged skating become the norm? I'd rather see dance steps, bit-o jumps, fast, centered spins.

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One legged skating has always been the norm! You land a jump on one leg and you spin on one leg as well (the two foot spin is for beginners). What difference does it make whether the body is in a sit spin, camel spin layback etc. There are guys (Todd and others) who only do sit spins, and there are other guys who only do camel spins (Plush, Klimkin).

soogar said:

One legged skating has always been the norm! You land a jump on one leg and you spin on one leg as well (the two foot spin is for beginners). What difference does it make whether the body is in a sit spin, camel spin layback etc. There are guys (Todd and others) who only do sit spins, and there are other guys who only do camel spins (Plush, Klimkin).

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Obviously, YOU missed the point.

Well, hey, that's the way you milk the points in this system. If the fans have a problem with it, maybe they should take it up with the Cop administrators and the ISU folks.

Not that I like them, either- I'm just saying.

IMO there should be something like the Zayak rule regarding spins/positions. One Bielmann spin and one Bielmann per program. The same goes for sit and camel spins. This would make for more interesting programs. We joke about all of the Bielmanns but there really should be a limit. I don't know what the value of a Charlotte is but if it's worth enough points I can see skaters skating half of thier program upside down . Is it possible for the judges to deduct points for the overuse of an element?

Orchid & Piel,
Look on page 6 of the "Ladies Free Skate" thread and you'll see (if you can find it in my way too long even for me post) that at 10:33 AM I wrote the very same thing: There should be a Zayak Rule for Beillmans for the ladies.

Obviously it's how they're racking up points, but when the ISU saw Elaine Zayak do 3toes over and over and over to "rack up" her score with the judges, people said, "This is ridiculous!"

I say "Deal with the Beillmans or deal me out!"

Rgirl

I like the Bielmann

As a skater, a Bielmann is a challenging element to complete. If you are doing a backward skate Bielmann you are pulling part of your backside forward while travelling backwards. If you are doing a forward skate Bielmann, you are fighting the forces that are trying to pull your weight over your toepick.

If you are doing any type of Bielmann spin you are working against spin forces, change in position difficulties, and bringing down the leg without dropping it, etc. And, if you can do it with different hand lifts, or with both legs (like Irina) then it is a pure show of flexibility and athletic ability.

I love it!! I first learned my Bielmann two years ago when I was 7. I can only do I leg right now, but I would love to be able to do both like Irina. I'm working on change in hand position like Mao. I think anyone who wishes to "ban" the Bielmann should try it first. The move looks effortless when done right, but it is a very difficult element. :thumbsup:

Nobody is claiming that a Bielman is easy. We all know it is difficult and nearly impossible for skaters who are not as flexible or who are older or who have had back injuries it could aggravate. The complaint is about how many are being done to get extra points and how ugly some of them are.

While I like the Biellmann spin and position, I agree that there should be a limit in the number of Biellmanns allowed in a program. It's getting tiresome of seeing it over and over again (especially prevalant in dance programs). Perhaps limit a skater to grabbing one's skate to twice in one program? I also would like to see a mandatory level one spin and for pairs a mandatory level one lift. I miss the simple elements done wonderfully versus seeing difficult elements done poorly. I'm sure COP will go through tweaking as time goes by.

A Mythbuster and a comment

I've noticed in various posts comments that a Biellmann position automatically gets a L4. Not sure if those comments have been intended as factual comments - or just comments representing general frustration over Beillmania. With the Biellmann position is considered a "difficult position," there are other criteria in spins and spirals to achieve L4, so a Biellmann doesn't automatically ensure an L4.

I would not be surprised if down the road, the rules change to limit use of any particular difficult position in a given program. I would actually like to see that change as I would like to see more variety too. Using the Zayak rule as an example, it came about largely because Zayak "over used" the tripple toe. But the Zayak rule addresses a limit to all tripple jumps - not solely the tripple toe. So to do this right, I would think that a change should probably encompass more than just a limit on the Biellmann position. (of course, I'm not writing the rules so this is just IMO.)

I think another flaw in the way the rules are written (and this is if I remember correctly, which might not be the case) I think the Biellmann is specifically mentioned in the rules as one example of a difficult position. Maybe part of the problem is that more positions that meet the criteria for "difficult" need to be specifically mentioned as examples, giving coaches and choreographers and skaters more specific details to work with. If I were a skater or coach and I were making a decision about using the Biellmann position, which I KNOW will be considered "difficult" because it's specifically called out in the rules v. another position that I THINK will be considered difficult but am not 100% sure, I would pick the Biellmann given a choice.

I think a bunch of us GS'ers should be voted into the ISU to be on the rules committee.

DG

Biellmann is called out as one of the positions that makes a spin difficult. It is also called out in a limiting way: in the layback spin in the SP, it only counts as a position if the skater has already completed 8 revs in other positions.

hockeyfan228 said:

Biellmann is called out as one of the positions that makes a spin difficult. It is also called out in a limiting way: in the layback spin in the SP, it only counts as a position if the skater has already completed 8 revs in other positions.

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Thanks as always for your expert clarification!!! I'm curious whether you think my "theory" that the Biellmann being called out as a difficult position (where other positions that might be considered "difficult" or not) holds any water, or is just bogus. You are way more knowledgeable than me, and I would value your opinion one way or the other. All part of the learning process for me, ya know??

Thanks!!

DG

How does a skater gain as much points if the skater can not do Bielman"s?

Joe

Look at one of Jeff Buttle's L4 spins.

As for sitspins, I would like to see a deduction if the skater's fanny does not go down to the ice. I notice Brian is down there now but Plush can't go any further than bending his knee.

Anything short of all the way down should be considered a variation on the scratch spin. That goes for Lambiel as well.

Joe

For dance, apparently a sit position in a dance spin is considered a "difficult" position if the thigh is parallel to the ice.

(See pictures 18 vs. 19 in http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ID_InstructionsforTS-TC_05-08.29.pdf ).

For freestyle, maybe that should be considered the minimum just to qualify as a sit position (or variation, e.g., broken leg or pancake) when a sit position is required, otherwise it's considered an upright spin. But that's pretty harsh at the lower levels, or in back sitspins, where positions like picture 18 are pretty common.. Better just to consider it as deserving -1 GOE.

Then a variation where the skater goes all the way down, such as sitting on the back of the other boot, could count as a difficult position or +1 GOE.

Sits are also difficult in that they use up a lot of energy as the skater rises to the upright position. In the old days skaters (mostly male) would so a sitspin all the way down with the free leg paralel to the ice, then rise up and go down again in the same L posiition., It takes its toll on the skating leg.

Joe

I'm with you on this orchid. If I never see another Beillman again it will be too soon. It used to be a program highlight that you saw a few skaters do. Now EVERYBODY's got one, most of them aren't all that good, and they do five or six in a program. Yawn.