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Thread: Boy, Was I Wrong!

  1. #1
    Custom Woman
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    Boy, Was I Wrong!

    #1. A couple of months ago I posted about seeing Daria Grinkova at the Bridgeport COI last winter and how by just eyeballing her relative to the people around her, I guessed her height to be about 5'4 or 5'5'.

    Well, I just saw a photo of the whole Kulik-Gordeeva family, standing very close together, all in skates, with Daria standing right next to her mother. Daria is exactly the same height as Katia. This photo was just taken about a week ago. Sorry I can't provide a link to it.

    Anyway, BOY, WAS I WRONG!

    #2. When the COP was first being used, many people posted that they thought the COP would cause the skaters to make the programs look all the same. I, in my infinite wisdom posted, "No, no. I think the COP will prompt skaters to become more creative with their programs, ie, footwork into jumps, different spiral and spin variations, creative choreography, everything."

    Well, at least as far as the Ladies are concerned, BOY, WAS I WRONG! With the Ladies it's Beillman's to the nth degree. I expect to see them jumping in the Beillman position any day now.

    Various people, including me, have been posting about how there should be a "Zayak Rule" for Beillmans. That is, have a rule that limits the number of Beillman positions a skater may use in a program, including semi-Beillmans, ie one hand holding the blade and cross catch-foot Beillmans, whether they're in spins or the spiral sequence or wherever. Any variation of the Beillman position or the full Beillman virtually guarantees a Level 4 on that element, whether it's a spin or a spiral or whatever--unless it's a really bad Beillman or the skater falls.. It's just Beillman city out there with the Ladies.

    However, curiously enough, the COP for the Men has resulted in the most interesting choreography I've ever seen for the Men as a whole. Sandhu has a brilliantly creative LP, so does ChiangJiang Li, of all people. His choreography makes him look like a totally different skater, IMO. He's lyrical, he has beautifual transitions, all kinds of things

    With the Pairs and and Dance I haven't studied them enough to make any comments.

    There are a lot of good things about the COP, IMO, but skaters doing virtually all the same progam, not good. Not good at all.

    So that's my story. Comments? No spoilers please.

    Rgirl

  2. #2
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    Well women's skating has been looking the same for years. Under 6.0, everyone was doing lyrical programs with boring spirals and laybacks. Under COP, everyone (save for Irina) is doing lyrical programs with longer boring spirals and laybacks into Biellmans (and lots of Y and I spins).

    The men have always had a greater variety of programs. I think it's because guys aren't mandated to waste 15-25 seconds on a boring spiral sequence and instead have to put some footwork (which is always more interesting) in.

    The best thing about COP is everyone has been improving their spins. Soon a Lucinda Ruh will be the norm and not an oddity.

  3. #3
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Men's skating for me is generally more interesting than the Ladies under any system. Most men take risks and that's sport. Yes, there is a lot of splatting but the Men are out to win with whatever it takes.Ladies tend to do the right thing and present themselves as neat and tidy (ho hum). I just don't approve of a Bielman in the spiral section, and one spin is more than enough. I have mentioned before that we will see eventually, a flying bielman spin.

    Pairs should be getting a Bielman lift soon. the discipline has become so heavy with convoluted lifts that there is so little skating in between lifts except for crossovers. (One needs speed to do these wild and crazy lifts). Can you imagine any one of the neoskating lifts on stage in Swan Lake? Ballet lovers would laugh the princess and her suitor off the stage. Some people think this is 'raising the barre'. So be it, but I don't have to like it. There are some excellent Pairs skaters today who have to resort to these acrobatic lifts to please the CoP.

    Dance has become a new technique of "Variations on a Theme of Shoot the Duck" and other such idiocies. Whatever happened to a couple dancing together? BTW, the grimaces do not show passion for me. If the body language doesn't show passion the face looks phony. Give me T&D any day and also Punsulan and Swallow for that matter.

    I'm not sure CoP is causing all this exclusively but it does contribute to it.
    Da points gets da win.

    Joe

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    Dance is already using the Biellmann ad nauseam: every lady is grabbing her skate blade during a lift!

  5. #5
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    I like the Biellmann's in dancing. Or I should say the "swastika" Biellmann, with the bent knee and tilt. Delobel did a real one last year, but I can't remember seeing a straight up one on any of this year's downloads.

    Joe, two people dancing together stopped right about "Barnum" and "Bolero" and into the Duschenays, Usova/Zhulin, Klimova/Ponomorenko era, when it went from Ice Dancing to Ice Theater. Ironically, G&P's "Memorial" program is remembered, when they actually danced in their 1994 Olympic LP. Fusar-Poli/Margoglio's "I Will Survive," which got endless amounts of dissing, was actually dancing -- and in response to the ISU's dictum that uber-drama would not be welcome that season.

    And it is almost extinct with not only removing the rule that skaters could separate for a few seconds only, but requiring twizzles and SBS footwork sequences that preclude arm holds.

  6. #6
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    #1. Well, I just saw a photo of the whole Kulik-Gordeeva family, standing very close together, all in skates, with Daria standing right next to her mother. Daria is exactly the same height as Katia. This photo was just taken about a week ago. Sorry I can't provide a link to it.

    Anyway, BOY, WAS I WRONG!
    Jaana posted this last week

    http://koti.welho.com/mjylha2/albco12.jpg

    Here's a whole page of them

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10901

  7. #7
    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    Ya know Rgirl, I bet a lot of us were wrong about COP.
    I was actually rather hopeful about it in the beginning. I agreed that it was a good thing to appreciate more than just jumps. The problem is exactly what you have stated. This hideous Biellman craze is out of control. I think it's an ugly move on most people ... not so much once they're in the position, but getting in the position is extremely unattractive. There should be a limit to them and I'm sure we will see that ... just not this season.

    And I even think the men's spins are starting to all look alike.
    Not to mention how slow the spins are ... because everyone is going for 48 variations!!!

    I'm still trying to stay open-minded about it, but right now I'm not liking what I'm seeing.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    Various people, including me, have been posting about how there should be a "Zayak Rule" for Beillmans. That is, have a rule that limits the number of Beillman positions a skater may use in a program, including semi-Beillmans, ie one hand holding the blade and cross catch-foot Beillmans, whether they're in spins or the spiral sequence or wherever. Any variation of the Beillman position or the full Beillman virtually guarantees a Level 4 on that element, whether it's a spin or a spiral or whatever--unless it's a really bad Beillman or the skater falls.. It's just Beillman city out there with the Ladies.

    However, curiously enough, the COP for the Men has resulted in the most interesting choreography I've ever seen for the Men as a whole. Sandhu has a brilliantly creative LP, so does ChiangJiang Li, of all people. His choreography makes him look like a totally different skater, IMO. He's lyrical, he has beautifual transitions, all kinds of things
    If indeed Beilmann is not the only way to get the high level of the spin, spiral alike. Then all I can say is these girls, who copy beilmanns into the programs to death, is lacking of diversity skills to perform high level spins, spirals, alike without beilmann.

    In gymnastics it used to be a movement/position only rewarded once, the repeated movement/position got not extra credit. Well it is changed now, which is caused by the controvasy rbute from audience in Athan(2004 Summer Olympics) in men's bar events. Where Unarnove(?? name spelling) performed giant off bar loop (sory can't call the name) several times consectively (which is considered as very difficult) but he only got the credit for onece. So he lost the Gold....now FIG change the rules these movement will gain accuminate points....but here I gess the requirement of number of spin for a position to be count got it covered in FS.....and according to the article, under the new rule an very elite gymnastist will very well get score over 16, 17, not limited at 10 range anymore.

    Anyway, if indeed ISU apply a "Zayak Rule" for Beillmans. I'd like to hear it called "Irina Rule". Because Zayak was called because her over doing triple toes.....this way for better or worth, Irina will have her name leave in the sport forever.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    Dance is already using the Biellmann ad nauseam: every lady is grabbing her skate blade during a lift!
    But usually they are bringing their foot *to* their heads, not above.

    In the coaches conference call posted on the USFSA site

    http://www.usfigureskating.org/New_Judging.asp?id=291

    I see that position referred to as a "haircutter spin" when used in a layback. Cool, now I can use "hc" as an abbreviation for the blade-to-head position . . . which, incidentally, I had seen a few skaters using in their laybacks when I was skating 30 years ago, when Denise Biellmann was proably a novice back in Switzerland.

    Anyway, I think it is useful to use different terms to refer to blade to head and blade above head positions.

  10. #10
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    I have been trumpeting the "Zayak rule on Beillmann's" for awhile now. It is becoming out of control. Does anyone think that Speedy and the "technical committee" will ever actually address any of the issues that concern us?

    Besides the Beillmann issue- one other thing that has begun to annoy me greatly is the "upper body twist-- usually done with a raised opposite arm" that is now occurring with disturbing frequency in spins (often in sit-spin positions).

    Makes you long for the old days of a well-centered, fast spin in one position... like Dorothy Hamill's blurred scratch!

  11. #11
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Overall, I think CoP has a favorable effect on all disciplines except ice dance. True, we do have bielmania, but that can be changed by tweaking the CoP rules. Problems with ice dance, IMHO, are deeper. It just doesn't fit into the CoP format! I had an inkling it would be like that when I saw how complicated figuring out the final score is for dancing in comparison to the straight forward way it is done in singles and pairs. All the requirements to dance are killing the art of this sport.

  12. #12
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    I might not mind Biellmania from Slute if her position were better, but compare Biellman, Krieg (my favorite spinner ever), Ruh and Slute at:

    http://groups.msn.com/stanandskate/biellmannspin.msnw

    For me a Biellman spin isn't one unless the spinning leg is straight and the free leg almost so, Irina tends to bend the spinning leg and the free leg is nowhere near straight. If she were dinged on GOE (and PCS) for her bad Biellman position it would be one thing, but her bad Biellmans seem to be rewarded handsomely.

  13. #13
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    Whoa! I have never seen a Biellmann spin so high! I like it!

  14. #14
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    It's also the body position. Irina bends forward from the waist and her body is nearly parallel to the ice instead of being upright as Biellmann, Krieg and Ruh are. That's partly due to the fact that she doesn't hold the blade with both hands as the correct position shows, but holds with one hand and grasps the wrist with the other. Because of the makeshift hold position, Irina's arms are behind her shoulders and alongside her head, and she can't see the skate she is holding. The ladies who do a true Biellmann have their arms in line with their shoulders and in front of their heads, and they can actually look directly up at the skate.

    In a true Biellmann, the body, arms and held leg form a very graceful teardrop shape that does not reflect strain on any part of the body. Irina's Biellmann looks clumsy and uncomfortable.

  15. #15
    TriGirl Rinkside
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    I missed those pics the first time around ... fabulous. What a gorgeous family. Interesting how both girls look like their fathers, IMO. At least in those pics, this little one (Elizibeta??) is the splitting image of Ilia, and I've always thought Daria looks like Sergei.

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