Boy, Was I Wrong!

[CzarinaAnya]

I missed those pics the first time around ... fabulous. What a gorgeous family. Interesting how both girls look like their fathers, IMO. At least in those pics, this little one (Elizibeta??) is the splitting image of Ilia, and I've always thought Daria looks like Sergei.

It's spelled Elizaveta, but they call her, Liza. I think that it may be pronounced, Leeza.

[Joesitz]

In a true Biellmann, the body, arms and held leg form a very graceful teardrop shape that does not reflect strain on any part of the body. Irina's Biellmann looks clumsy and uncomfortable.

This thread has fast become a thread on Bielman's and I was hoping someone would approve or disapprove of the variations on shoot the duck in Dance.

I guess Hockeyfan is correct that Skate Dance is not a ballroom type of competition skating face to face but threatrical movements not quite being called Pairs.

Joe
BTW. I think if a Bielman doesn't look like Alissa's, it's not a Bielman.

[JOHIO2]

Okay, Joe, here is a comment on shoot-the-duck in dance. Be prepared for an epidemic of groin injuries! Sorry, just had to say it.

[Tenorguy]

Joesitz - OK, I'll take the bait

Along with most Dance fans I was initially fascinated by the sense of innovation with these shoot the duck holds - man low on the knee, woman counter-balanced in a flipped contortion, you know the move.

Now it seems the strain of coming up with the latest skate grab is showing on the couples' faces. What most implausible lift can someone create to make the women resemble: a sail, a feather, a clothes pin, a balancing dragonfly?! Has it gone too far, or not far enough?

Skating fads: remember the Age of the Woman Balancing the Guy? Hydroblading? The heavier the theme, the more outlandinsh the makeup? Women as scarves? Scary men in scarier makeup? Skaing to the sounds of weather?

Can you name your favorite or least favorite skating fad come and gone?
Joesitz, is that starting another topic? My Bad!

Tenorguy

[76olympics]

I miss the Blumberts ! (Blumberg and Seibert). That Fred and Ginger dance (and it really was a dance) was to die for!

Signed: An Ice Dancing Old fogie


Seriously, I only like the Bielmann when done by Krieg, Beilmann or Ruh. They have the true flexibility for it and it looks completely different when this new crop attempts it (let alone Plushenko!). There was a reason why only few once did this move!

I do think the COP could be a positive development--but it needs to develop a good bit more. All of you are right: we need more variety -not just a new sort of sameness.

[IDLERACER]

[CENTER]

#1. A couple of months ago I posted about seeing Daria Grinkova at the Bridgeport COI last winter and how by just eyeballing her relative to the people around her, I guessed her height to be about 5'4 or 5'5'. Well, I just saw a photo of the whole Kulik-Gordeeva family, standing very close together, all in skates, with Daria standing right next to her mother. Daria is exactly the same height as Katia. This photo was just taken about a week ago. Sorry I can't provide a link to it.

How weird is it that the three most senior Olympic hopefulls (Michelle, Irina & Sasha) also just might be the three shortest women in the entire amateur skating world, with the exception of Beatrisa Liang.[/CENTER]

[heyang]

What I truly dislike about the Bielman is that it's not truly a skill you can learn. If you don't have the flexibility, you can't do it. True, you can work on flexibility, but the body just won't do what it can't.

I also agree that it's being overused.

[IcyBallerina]

If the bielmann was rewarded with fewer points, the use of it would decline. But skaters would only find something new to rack up the points. "What fresh torture is this?" Those combinations of positions which are easiest to do while earning the greatest number of points will become widespread and commonplace, because EVERYONE wants those points, and will do any skating maneuver imaginable to get them. If someone else does it first or better, who cares? "Good enough" becomes the credo.

I hope that skating doesn't become like rhythmic gymnastics- while it is beautiful, all the top-level performers do the same things, because that's what it takes to get the scores. Even worse, the rankings are completely fixed by influential coaches promoting their favorites. Even many people involved in the sport think it's a tragedy.

[Joesitz]

Joesitz - OK, I'll take the bait

Along with most Dance fans I was initially fascinated by the sense of innovation with these shoot the duck holds - man low on the knee, woman counter-balanced in a flipped contortion, you know the move.

tenorguy - I can't call shoot the duck (origin long before figure skating started) or hydroblading (it's refined name) as being innovative. they've been around for decades. Check out the commedians in the original Hollywood Ice Revue.

Can you name your favorite or least favorite skating fad come and gone?
Joesitz, is that starting another topic? My Bad!Tenorguy

Sure: favorites: beautiful simple camel spins a la Butryskaya; Multi rotating jumps where the 1st rotation is slow and the remaining are fast a la Saboknik (sp)

Least favorites: Bielman spirals and spins. Cantolevers, hydoblading, shoot the ducks unless there is a reason for them other than scoring points.

As for Dance. Latin dancing is not exotic. It's quite popular in New York and other places where the latino populations are large. At every very high school prom in the US, there is plenty of merengue, cha cha, mambo regardless of ethnic background.

It seems to me that they are negligible in Eastern Europe. Eastern europeans tend to think of Sheherazade(sp) as the key to anything that is not European. JMO

Joe

[julietvalcouer]

Dance has become a new technique of "Variations on a Theme of Shoot the Duck" and other such idiocies. Whatever happened to a couple dancing together? BTW, the grimaces do not show passion for me. If the body language doesn't show passion the face looks phony. Give me T&D any day and also Punsulan and Swallow for that matter.

Word. Wordy McWord of the Clan McWord, actually. I just got some T&D tapes and I had to shut them off because I wasn't getting anything done--I was getting mesmerized by watching a 1983 compulsory dance, for heaven's sake. B&A I find cute, N&K dramatic, but after watching T&D I weep for my sport. If you want to be a pairs skater, be a pairs skater. If you want to dance, DANCE. It doesn't have to be boring. International Ballroom isn't boring. A bit hyper at times, if anything (and let us not discuss the sluty costumes in Latin.)

ITA about the grimacing. Constipated =/= drama.

[icenine]

I don't have a problem with a Biellman that's done with some speed, good form, and changes of edge. I just get tired of seeing bad ones. I agree Alissa's is very good, especially in spins.
Maybe since so many are doing them, they'll rethink giving so many points as a "difficult" element....
Also, I was thinking about Van der Perrin the other day. Does the fact that he tracks his jumps increase the difficulty of the element, or is it just considered an aberation? If I'm not mistaken, Griazev also tracks his spins.
Joesitz, you would be the one to ask, I think.

[Ptichka]

As for Dance. Latin dancing is not exotic. It's quite popular in New York and other places where the latino populations are large. At every very high school prom in the US, there is plenty of merengue, cha cha, mambo regardless of ethnic background.

Quite right. However, it's popular not because it's exotic, but because the music and the rhythm can cover up more errors than more traditional ballroom dances.

[Rgirl]

Thanks, Mathman, for reposting the photos Jaana originally did. Obviously I missed those. Actually, in these photos, Daria looks about an inch or two shorter than Katia.

If the bielmann was rewarded with fewer points, the use of it would decline. But skaters would only find something new to rack up the points. "What fresh torture is this?" Those combinations of positions which are easiest to do while earning the greatest number of points will become widespread and commonplace, because EVERYONE wants those points, and will do any skating maneuver imaginable to get them. If someone else does it first or better, who cares? "Good enough" becomes the credo.

I hope that skating doesn't become like rhythmic gymnastics- while it is beautiful, all the top-level performers do the same things, because that's what it takes to get the scores. Even worse, the rankings are completely fixed by influential coaches promoting their favorites. Even many people involved in the sport think it's a tragedy.

You make excellent points, IcyBallerina. I'm afraid that with any COP system, unless many variations on non-jump elements are ranked as Level 4, is going to go the way of rhythmic gymnastics. Another option, however, would be to not rank the non-jump elements at all and just give them a GOE. For example, an exquisite Dorothy Hamill blurred scratch spin would get a higher GOE than a crummy Biellman.

Heyang I also like your point that the Biellman is something that, depending on your anatomy, you either can or cannot do. It's kind of like giving some of the points to your parents if you can do one.

Speaking of anatomy, Irina has slightly hyperflexed knees. She couldn't fully straighten them without breaking them. Nevertheless, it's true that Irina does not have an "A" level Biellman position. In the spins I'd give the position a "B" and in the spirals, a "C." However, her Biellman spins are very fast and go both forward and back, which is pretty groovy IMO.

I just watched my COC tape of Irina's Biellman spin and while she doesn't have anywhere near the "fold" in the lower back that allows the free leg to be raised up until it's almost straight, IMO it's also not nearly as bad as the photo provided by Mafke. In that photo it looks as if Irina hasn't reached her full position yet.

Now I realize the upcoming photo was taken in 1998, before Irina became an old married lady, without all the flexibility she had back then. But just for comparison's sake--since it's not going to change anybody's mind anyway--try this site and scroll down to the photo of Irina's Biellman.
http://www.leigh-i-am.com/slute8.shtml

And to think, I just started this thread to 'fess up to some recent blunders. Ya never know where a thread's gonna go.

Rgirl

[Joesitz]

Also, I was thinking about Van der Perrin the other day. Does the fact that he tracks his jumps increase the difficulty of the element, or is it just considered an aberation? If I'm not mistaken, Griazev also tracks his spins.
Joesitz, you would be the one to ask, I think.

Icenine (I love your signature name- I think of baseball team on ice )

I'm not sure what you mean by 'track'? If you mean 'spot' as in the ballet term, then it would seem that v d Perren and Griazev had quite a bit of ballet training before they began to skate and retained the 'spot' nuance.

There is a minute fraction of a second when a dancer spots. I believe the move was concocted for the dancer to ensure he continues to face the audience on a procenium stage. (just a guess). Figure Skating makes use of the oval arena where the audience encircles that type of stage, and thus, no spotting is necessary, but having worked in a 'Round' once, I soon began to realize that you play up to crowd you are facing. Immature skaters can not do this - it is not easy. (One never feels that Kwan has turned her back on you when watching.)

I haven't noticed Griazev's spins that much except I see them as being solid. I will look closer in the future. v.d.Perren does spot the jumps and while I enjoy the nuance, I believe it keeps him from executing a quad. His choice.

Now if track is spot, then the above is what I can say. If not, please explain.

Cheers - Joe

[Mathman]

Wordy McWord of the Clan McWord.