Boy, Was I Wrong!

[Mafke]

Heyang
Speaking of anatomy, Irina has slightly hyperflexed knees. She couldn't fully straighten them without breaking them. Nevertheless, it's true that Irina does not have an "A" level Biellman position. In the spins I'd give the position a "B" and in the spirals, a "C." However, her Biellman spins are very fast and go both forward and back, which is pretty groovy IMO.

Now I realize the upcoming photo was taken in 1998, before Irina became an old married lady, without all the flexibility she had back then. But just for comparison's sake--since it's not going to change anybody's mind anyway--try this site and scroll down to the photo of Irina's Biellman.
http://www.leigh-i-am.com/slute8.shtml

Rgirl

Random notes:
True some skaters can do a classic Biellman, most can't, some can do an approximation. If anything I prefer Irina's spiral position Biellman to her spin, the position that she can get looks better in a spiral than a spin (for me, ymmv).

This picture you linked to is a better position than the one I linked to, but still a B at best (maybe a B+) She's still not holding the blade with both hands, but with one hand and her hand holding her wrist and the position looks a little grotesque rather than graceful (the picture of Krieg I linked to is also a little grotesque with her head beant so far back)

I'd harp less on Irina's Biellman position if she didn't use it so often, which she wouldn't of course if it wasn't valued so highly by COP (very mistakenly IMHO).

[hockeyfan228]

Seriously, I only like the Bielmann when done by Krieg, Beilmann or Ruh. They have the true flexibility for it and it looks completely different when this new crop attempts it (let alone Plushenko!). There was a reason why only few once did this move!

Daria Timoshenko was able to do a true Biellmann on both sides. I know Karademir of Turkey (who trains in Canada) can do one to one side, but I can't remember if she can to the other. Now, Yan Liu does a lovely one, at least sometimes.

[gkelly]

See this thread for links to some more Biellmanns:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...818#post130818

[Joesitz]

Apparenty, from the posts we've been reading, the Bielman spin can only be done by generic flexible bodies. My question to all you fans: Should skaters who do not have the generic flexible bodies discontinue competing since multiple Bielman positions bring in lots of scoring points and put others without that natural flexibility at a huge disadvantage? Remember, all skaters' bodies are equal in all elements except for the Bielman.

It could be a way of eliminating a number of skaters from competitions.

Joe

[gkelly]

Not all skaters are genetically capable of doing a true spread eagle. Does that mean they should not be allowed to compete?

(Well, it may mean they won't get chosen for the top synchro teams if enough skaters try out who can do all the moves the choreographers want.)

[Joesitz]

It reminds me of Ballanchine who changed the way little ballerinas are chosen for the company. He insisted on short torsos and long legs. Height was not a factor but the proportion of torso to legs was.

A lot of little ballerinas are still crying because that body type is now in all the major ballet companies.

Spread Eagles are not that point heavy. Are they?

Joe

[gkelly]

Spread eagles only count as transitions. Doing them into or out of jumps or spins may also increase the GOE of those elements.

Biellmanns are one option out of many for difficult positions in spins and spirals. They do not by themselves increase point values, but they do contribute to higher levels and thus higher points for those elements.

(For a change-foot combination spin, though, it's necessary to have more than one difficult position and more than one feature even to reach level 2, so just adding a Biellmann to a simple combo spin will still leave it as level 1.)

[Ptichka]

I don't think all skaters' bodies are equal for all other elements. Some of the pair throws are impossible to do with a heavier lady - that pesky little gravity gets in the way.

[julietvalcouer]

It reminds me of Ballanchine who changed the way little ballerinas are chosen for the company. He insisted on short torsos and long legs. Height was not a factor but the proportion of torso to legs was

Joe

Suddenly, my weird obsession with Ballanchine becomes clear (besides the fact that Edward Gorey adored him and I adore Gorey.) Never heard it explained flat-out like that, but that's my body type to a t--I have in fact an unusually short torso (an inch off what standard clothing patterns say I should have, nape to waist) and very long legs for my height. And for whipping around some turns and twizzles (which I just basically taught myself) it's actually rather a plus. Ballanchine choreographed for bodies that I see as normal. Explains a heck of a lot.

Can't do a Bielmann, though. Catchfoot spiral positions, yes, but my knees and hips simply don't bend that way.

[Joesitz]

Suddenly, my weird obsession with Ballanchine becomes clear (besides the fact that Edward Gorey adored him and I adore Gorey.) Never heard it explained flat-out like that, but that's my body type to a t--I have in fact an unusually short torso (an inch off what standard clothing patterns say I should have, nape to waist) and very long legs for my height. And for whipping around some turns and twizzles (which I just basically taught myself) it's actually rather a plus. Ballanchine choreographed for bodies that I see as normal. Explains a heck of a lot.

Can't do a Bielmann, though. Catchfoot spiral positions, yes, but my knees and hips simply don't bend that way.

Juliet - get thee to the american school of ballet and audition for the summer classes. One has to actually audition to get into that school.
btw, who is Edward Gorey?

Don't worry about the Bielman. Ballet lives. The Bielman which every ballerina could do if they skated is more for Cirque du Soleil.

Joe

[julietvalcouer]

Gorey..hm, every seen "Mystery" on PBS? He drew the opening credits. Also a famous writer/illustrator with a very distinct style. And he also, for a span of about twenty or so years, saw every show the NYCB did. I mean every PERFORMANCE. Like, every lousy matinee, every Nutcracker, everything. A couple of his little books, "The Gilded Bat" and "The Lavender Leotard or, Fifty Seasons of the New York City Ballet" are ballet-themed. (Lavender Leotard is full of in-jokes about NYCB, from sets and costumes to a nudge at Ballanchine's choreography.) I adore Gorey's macabre little books, and because of him I was curious and got into Ballanchine's works, as much as I can see of them, anyway.

http://www.tfaoi.com/newsm1/n1m113.htm

There's a review/description of a show of Gorey's poster art. (I have a lithograph of the print at the top of the page. One of the few pieces he did in color.)

Heh. I have just enough time for skating, thanks! (And may be off the ice for the rest of the week--stupid knee. I broke it dancing when I was fourteen, and tonight it popped and felt odd enough I went in for x-rays. I am TOO YOUNG TO BE LOSING CARTILAGE, DAMMIT! Suzanne Farrell made it to 39 before she needed a hip replacement, and I really don't think ice dance is that stressful on the legs, and it's not like I dance en pointe! Yes, I don't like injuries. They annoy me.)

But I do think that skaters can take a lot from ballet. Especially a mentality like Ballanchine's, about creating shapes in space. Skating is like that, only moving faster.

[Joesitz]

Oh THAT Gorey! In addition to his superb pen and ink drawings, he also designed the sets and costumes for the 1970s Dracula on Broadway. Everyting was in black, white and gray except for splashes of blood red. Great show! Frank Langella was never better and so sexualy scary.

I think for the most part, skaters take the easy way out and concentrate on music like Carmen which has definite beat and a one way interpretation.

Joe

[Rgirl]

....But I do think that skaters can take a lot from ballet. Especially a mentality like Ballanchine's, about creating shapes in space. Skating is like that, only moving faster.

"Shapes in space." I absolutely could not agree more. Along with the quality of the transitions, that's what sticks in the brain and conveys the the emotion via the body, IMO.

BTW, I'm a big Balanchine and Gorey fan, too.

Take care of that knee.

Rgirl

[julietvalcouer]

"Shapes in space." I absolutely could not agree more. Along with the quality of the transitions, that's what sticks in the brain and conveys the the emotion via the body, IMO.

BTW, I'm a big Balanchine and Gorey fan, too.

Take care of that knee.

Rgirl

Hee. *looks guiltily at immobilizer she's not wearing* I'm going to get a knee brace at Wal-Mart tomorrow (assuming I'm not eaten alive by the post-Thanksgiving shoppers), one that lets me move a little more. It's better than it was, anyway. If there's no real improvement I'll call the orthopodist and see what they can tell me.

When it comes to dance, I remember close skating, fast footwork, and interesting looks--the way the body is positioned. One thing I love about watching Torvill and Dean is that they always look like they're dancing, and they're never boring to look at. But they're not just posing, they're doing things that make sense with the music.

[Rgirl]

.....When it comes to dance, I remember close skating, fast footwork, and interesting looks--the way the body is positioned. One thing I love about watching Torvill and Dean is that they always look like they're dancing, and they're never boring to look at. But they're not just posing, they're doing things that make sense with the music.

Very true. Shapes, transitions, closeness, footwork, musicality, moving from the center--just a few of the things that go into great ice dancing. Most of these things also go into any kind of dancing. though of course in the latter it can be solos, duets, any number of dancers doing the choreography. But as they say, the basics are time, space, and energy.

Rgirl