New Hersh Article- says Kwan probably won't be at December event
- Thread starter R.D.
- Start date
nymkfan51 said:
Why do the judges have to give Irina 6.5s in PCS when she skating extremely well? That doesn't make sense. I see some of the guys having tons of troubles on jumps getting 6's and 7's by judges in PCS. I don't love Irina's skating but she's the sharpest skater competing so early in the season. Why shouldn't she get 8s in PCS when everyone else isn't up to snuff. I also feel that the other skaters are building to a peak in the Olympics (or Nationals) while Irina is trying to maintain a high standard of competition early in the season. I see that she's trying to pace herself by gradually adding difficulty, it will be interesting to see whether she will compete as hard in Euros in an attempt to build herself up for Olympics.
soogar said:
I'll tell you exactly why. You can't just lump all PCS categories into one, but unfortunately, that seems to be what most judges are doing. They are all separate and should be judged accordingly.
For instance ... here is a breakdown of Irina and Shiz's PCS from COC:
Skating Skills:
Irina - 8.05
Shiz - 7.65
Transitions/Linking Footwork:
Irina - 7.60
Shiz - 7.30
Performance/Execution:
Irina - 8.05
Shiz - 7.55
Choreography/Composition
Irina - 7.95
Shiz - 7.55
Interpretation
Irina - 8.10
Shiz - 7.60
Now ... I would most definitely give Irina higher marks for SS and PE, no argument there.
But there is no way that she should be scoring ahead of Shizuka in Choreography or Interpretation ... or maybe even transitions. What's happening is the judges are just giving Irina high marks across the board because she does some things very well. You can still reward her for excellent jumps and speed/flow across the ice, without also giving her a high grade in choreography or interpretation ... where I think she falls miserably short.
And you can bet your sweet bippy that Michelle will be behind her in those marks too. It doesn't matter ... she will beat everyone in those marks unless she implodes on the ice.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2005
flowjo35 said:Anything can happen, the ice is very slippery. I just hope it's a fair and exciting competition and the best skater wins.
Yes, the ice is slippery. But it's not Irina who'll fall on this ice. Not even an iceberg thrown on her face will stop her. The anonymous judges with all their PCS scores will make sure of that. The gold is already hers.
A fair and exciting competition? Dream on.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
There seem to be three positions about Irina and the OGM.
1. Irina will certainly win because the judges (for mysterious reasons yet to be explained) will cheat for her.
2. Irina will almost certainly win because she is skating way better than anyone else.
3. Anything can happen.
IMHO it is hard to argue against #3. Anything can happen.
As for #1, I love the grassy knoll as well as the next guy. But so far no one has offered any reasonable speculation as to why the power brokers in the ISU would suddenly decide en masse to become Irinophiles.
For those who want to argue for position #2, one thing about the CoP is that it let's us quantify these things. The numbers posted above by NYMKfan may be suspiciously uniform across the five components.
But that's not why Irina won and Shizuka lost. For all the hew and cry about inflated PCS, Irina scored only 3.36 points higher than Shizuka in Component scores, and almost twice as much -- 6.50 -- in Technical scores.
The moral of the story -- just like in 6.0 scoring, land your jumps, ladies! If this ever happens then we will see if anyone is cheating.
An exciting competition? It's up to the other ladies to make it so, if they are able.
MM
1. Irina will certainly win because the judges (for mysterious reasons yet to be explained) will cheat for her.
2. Irina will almost certainly win because she is skating way better than anyone else.
3. Anything can happen.
IMHO it is hard to argue against #3. Anything can happen.
As for #1, I love the grassy knoll as well as the next guy. But so far no one has offered any reasonable speculation as to why the power brokers in the ISU would suddenly decide en masse to become Irinophiles.
For those who want to argue for position #2, one thing about the CoP is that it let's us quantify these things. The numbers posted above by NYMKfan may be suspiciously uniform across the five components.
But that's not why Irina won and Shizuka lost. For all the hew and cry about inflated PCS, Irina scored only 3.36 points higher than Shizuka in Component scores, and almost twice as much -- 6.50 -- in Technical scores.
The moral of the story -- just like in 6.0 scoring, land your jumps, ladies! If this ever happens then we will see if anyone is cheating.
An exciting competition? It's up to the other ladies to make it so, if they are able.
MM
MM, with this system being based on a cumulative point basis, 3.36 points can mean a great deal.
Now, so we're clear ... I do not believe that anyone would have beaten Irina so far this season, but the scores should have been closer, IMO. The way things are now, there is no contest for the gold. If the PCS were given more fairly, there might just be some slight question who would win.
I think what might be the problem is the judges don't have enough time to evaluate each component score individually. Thus, Irina is getting the advantage of her good marks in SS and PE spilling over to the other categories.
In any case, nothing I have seen so far shows me that Irina has improved in any measuable amount in her presentation/interpretation skills.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Now, so we're clear ... I do not believe that anyone would have beaten Irina so far this season, but the scores should have been closer, IMO. The way things are now, there is no contest for the gold. If the PCS were given more fairly, there might just be some slight question who would win.
I think what might be the problem is the judges don't have enough time to evaluate each component score individually. Thus, Irina is getting the advantage of her good marks in SS and PE spilling over to the other categories.
In any case, nothing I have seen so far shows me that Irina has improved in any measuable amount in her presentation/interpretation skills.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
ITA - I've been saying that since Day 1 of the CoP beginnings. There are just too many things going on, particularly inthe PCS scores for one judge to decide in 45seconds. What I believe happens is: if the skater has plenty of pluses for execution then the judges use that for the PCS scores. As much as I complain about judges, I have to admit, they are human.nymkfan51 said:
The Answer?: Separate Judges for Tech and PCS. Special Instructions for PCS judges to judge each of the breakdowns and only that. Let the other judge worry about the tech.
Joe
hwell:Amateur/professional? Most of the big Olympic sports have had professionals competing for years. Examples, tennis, basketball, skiing, track and field. The only true amateurs these days are in sports like curling and I wouldn't put money against that claim. So.....
havanamesa1 said:
More power to Irina! Up to this point, Irina is the only skater that deserves to be on top. She is racking up the points, what difference does it make how many Biellmann's she does, if it's working why change it. What's the difference in Irina receiving 8's and even 10's in the CoP, when in the past some skaters received perfect 6.0's with flawed programs. I would say that if certain skaters were able to do all those Biellmanns as Irina does them and rack up the points everybody would be
. Because Irina does them certain fans are :scowl:millie said:I would say that if certain skaters were able to do all those Biellmanns as Irina does them and rack up the points everybody would be
This theory doesn't hold much water since everyone and their mothers are now doing Bielmanns.
nymkfan51 said:
You won't get an argument from me that Shiz is underscored. However to many people, Shiz has all the excitement of a wet blanket and is relatively emotionless when she performs. Don't you think that would affect the interpretation score a bit if the skater looks like she doesn't want to be there. And choreography/composition is just like the presentation score. It depends on the judges' taste. Shiz has more choreo than Irina, but she has a problem getting through the program. What difference does it make to have great choreo if you can't do your elements well to it? While I think Shiz is better, there are a lot of factors that go into those PCS scores and judges are people too. Most people like to see a bundle of energy bouncing all over the place. There are many people who think Shiz is boring. Maybe some of those people are judges as well.
Talk about agenda kyla, you are a self professed "uber" fan. Last time when Irina met your favorite in world 05, her TES, and PCS scores beat your favorite's scores from QR, to sp, to lp. I expect you to be p!ssed at Irina. What a nice subtle touch when you "speculate" and think about the potential SE of the glucocorticoids that Irina is taking, and just oh so subtly put in that there is a potential SE of a "buzz, and high". Bravo, to suggest that there may be an increase of focus energy for Irina. In reality glucocorticoids may cause increase of unfocus almost psychotic energy that amounts to nothing in terms of performance enhancement, and possible worsen athletic performance.kyla2 said:
In addition to whining about Irina's well deserved placement, you throw a tantrum when others disagree with you about your favorite. Just look how you jump all over dancindiva.
i expect name calling from you too. You can't keep Irina from beating your favorite, so you have to go for name calling just because others defend Irina, and disagree with you about your favorite :disagree:
Back to topic, Phil Hersh does not have any idea about Michelle's decision, IMO, he is just speculating.
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- Jan 22, 2004
kyla2 said:
Why is it that YOU are entitled to an opinion that obviously in your mind is fair and unbiased and CLEARLY the "right" opinion (though how can any one opinion be right?), but anyone else with an opinion that conflicts with yours must have some sort of agenda? I can admit that Sasha has some good points, she is very flexible and has some nice spins, but I'm not going to lie and say she is great at everything, or that I enjoy everything she does. Dick and Peggy can gush all they want, gezando has the right idea, its what the JUDGES think that I'm going to go along with. They've been to judging schools, they have watched thousands of skaters, despite what you may think they DO know what they are doing. As far as Sasha goes, I'll stop complaining about the weak, shallow, shakey edges when she at least ATTEMPTS to fix the problems. When I see her at least making an effort to improve her speed, I'll stop b***hing about how slow she is compared to the other ladies. And if she ever gets beyond the "flexibility IS expressive!" choreography and actually tries something new, something that she has not used four times already, I'll give her some credit.
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- Oct 23, 2005
Jhar55 said:
I can see this happening, unfortunately. As much as I would love to see Michelle compete at the Olympics and at Worlds for the last time in her career, I have a huge feeling that it's not to be. How can she possibly be ready for Nationals in just 6 wks if she isn't able to land her triples yet? She's running out of time....
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- Oct 23, 2005
dancindiva03 said:
You mean like that catch foot spin she ALWAYS does at the very end of EVERY program I have ever seen her do? Or that spiral move where she lifts her foot up and turns? I was watching the short programs that were on this evening, and thinking to myself that Sashas programs all look EXACTLY the same, regardless of the music or anything else. It's hard to believe she is 21 years old...her skating almost looks no different from the 15 year old Sasha we first saw at the 2000 Nationals.
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2004
*~RussianBleux~* said:
That is so true. She doesn't try anything new. A lot of people diss Michelle for "resting on her laurels" but really, what has Sasha done to improve her skating or to up the ante in the ladies field? Nothing. Her programs are stuck back in 1999.
dancindiva03 said:
Agreed. (Or for me, stuck back in 2004!)
Is it true that MK is not doing ANY jumps or spins? I thought someone reported that she was doing single jumps and spins, and trying to get back in the thick of things for Nats. The quotes I've heard about/from team Kwan don't sound like someone who is planning to quit soon. I think she wants to be at these OLYs, regardless of whether she has a chance to medal or not. I say it would be great just to see her take the ice in Torino.
MM- I STILL say Irina is going to win.
Alright, I agree with #3, anything can happen, but the way I look at things is in the moment. And in the moment, Irina is simply killing everyone else. Forget the Cop. She's just BETTER than everyone else at this point. There would have to be a miraculous turn-around. Also, I think Irina will HAVE to make at least one MAJOR mistake to not win the gold in Torino, given that one or more of these skaters (Shiz/Ando/Cohen) REALLY brings on the heat. Once again, though, I have my concerns about Irina being a SURE bet, but I think it's a pretty safe bet. In other words, I wouldn't be uncomfortable betting real money on her winning at this point.
