Ladies from TV

Comments?

You almost gave me a heart attack, Joe, when I saw these threads dated yesterday. I thought I'd missed the telecast!

Fortunately, quickly enough, that is, without having to dial 911, I realized you were just being a good mod and getting the threads ready in advance to prepare for le déluge of posts.

My blood pressure is okay nowl.

Idiot Rgirl

The title should read Ladies Short on TV

I left out Short in the title. Can anyone put it in?

More important, I checked Heathers and there is a later one that says it is Sunday Nov. 27th from 4-6 ESPN2 and Monday Nov.28 from 9-Mid ESPN2 All EDT.

Joe

I actually thought Sasha was quite good ... minus the flip. To me, her TES should rightly reflect that, but I think her PCS were a bit low. The choreography and presentation I thought was first rate.

Mao was lovely and exciting, but again ... nowhere near the quality of finishing off moves like Sasha or Shizuka.
Kimmie's outing was a disaster, but this is a good strong program that I think will work very well if she lands her jumps.
I love Joannie, but despise that music!!! UUGGHHHH!!!!! :banging:
Sokolova ... well, what can one say.

I feel Sasha is a little slow. The change in choreography reduced the excitment of the program. Sasha even removed some decorations of the red dress, and made the dress look like unfinished dress. I think her short program was perfect last year, in every aspect. She can update spins, but not too much in-betweens. Biellman spin is not her trade mark. No wonder she did not put it in programs before.

Mao Asada is a typical Asian girl. She did not pretend to be young at all. Most Asian girls look a lot younger than Western girls. Mao did a great job.

Kimmie skated right after Mao. It gave her some pressure. But Kimme made some improvement at speed, power and presentation this year.

Hope I will not forget to watch and tape tomorrow's long programs.

Sasha has a wonderful program to the music she looks best at (Dark Eyes). It suits her personality. Why didn't she enlarge Malaguena instead of R&J for her LP?

The Wow extensions are her forte because the jumps are still weak. All in all, it was a good routine with plenty of pizzazz. She is not a lyrical skater and should avoid R&J and go for the flashy music where she can sell it to the audience. Well, I'm overreacting. I'll see the R&J tomorrow.

Mao beat Sasha because she is the little dahling of the lot. I think she is better than Oksana was in Lillehammer and, she is good enough to give Irina a run for the gold at the Olys if she gets there. She's had the international experience with the top tier skaters (and won).

Shizuka was not at her best but she has a powerful routine by TT. If she executes the SP the way TT wants her to, she will be the thrust at the Olys.

Elena is a good tech skater but it doesn't go beyond that, imo, and when the tech is off, so goes Elena.

Kimmie needs to do some serious thinking. the lutz take off was so perfect she forgot to rock the body over for the air turns. Her air turns were unbelievably on a 30 degree slant. the slip on the spiral was a bobble. She has gotten some style to her skating but I don't see her near Alissa in that area yet.

Joannie, was solid. I think her scores should have been higher.

Joe

Arakawa IMO has the greatest presence and presentation among the ladies too bad about her triple flip. I am seriously worry about her triple flip problem,

Cohen was slower than molasses, IMO just about everyone minus cupcake outspeed her. JMO, even her spins looked slower than usual.

Mao is such a delight to watch. I hope the Japanese federation will arrange for her to train with Lori Nichol this summer. Worlds 07 is just a little bit over a year away. Mao beat Cohen in her speed, her jumps, and overall technical contend, and she has good enough PCS.

Joe, I really like your "wish" that Sasha had expanded Maleguena into an LP rather than R/J. That SP is one of my all time favorite Sasha programs and I think that might have worked better. When will she learn to consult us FIRST before making these big decisions??

I will also add agreement to other comments about Sasha's speed. I know it's hard to tell on TV, and I've never seen it live to have the comparison at my own finger tips. But every account I read from people who were there described her as "slow."

I think the ISU would be opening a SERIOUS can of worms if they grant Mao an age exception for Oly's. And my opinion has nothing at all to do with Mao, or with whether I personally think the current age limits are good or bad. Adjusting the rules as you go has proven time and again to me to be a BAD idea both in sport and in business (and FS involves some of each). Note to Speedy - don't do it - bad idea.

I love both of Shiz's programs and just hope she can get some fire in her blades, and also fix the sort of iffy jump problems. I will cry is we never get to see these programs performed as they should be, and as I believe Shiz is capable of. (and while I'm on Shiz, I'll just beg her once again to go back to that terrific short hair she was sporting at Worlds!)

DG

I think Sasha was very good. The triple flip was 2 footed so she got a deduction.
She was slow. Going up to level 3 and 4 have been harder for her and her spins are in slow motion. Hopefully with practice it will get better. With more speed and clean jumps she probably will get higher PCS. Discounting Mao I think that is the second best SP score of the olympic elgibles. Still a mile away from Irina but skated clean can get a few more points. With some level changes, clean, and more speed maybe a 63 or 64.

Shizuka's flip is a real problem. Underrotated and 2 footed put her further behind Sasha and Mao. Clean I think she can get a 63 or 64 too. Lets just say they need Irina to have a minor mess up to have a chance.

Mao is wonderful. Is she really 15? Miles ahead of Miki in the presentation department at that age. I hope she stays healthy. Deserved first on the technical.

Kimmie. Not good. She's got problems with that spiral section. It is too hard for her. Needs to go down a level. She does that performance at Nats and she's not going to Torino.

I know Sasha gets raves for her spirals, because as we saw, she has great extension. Even with her stretch, her spiral still seemed lacking to me. Her edges seemed questionable, or maybe it's just that it was so slow. Let's chalk it up to recovering from her injury. It's too early in the season to be losing steam!

Kimmie looked SO upset in the K & C. She already seems to be carrying the burden of all the hype. Surely she has to be prepared for the possibility that she may not make the Olympic team this year.

A number of people have said what I agree or disagree with very well, so I'll just quote them and say with what I agree and disagree.

nymkfan51 said:

I actually thought Sasha was quite good ... minus the flip. To me, her TES should rightly reflect that, but I think her PCS were a bit low. The choreography and presentation I thought was first rate.
Mao was lovely and exciting, but again ... nowhere near the quality of finishing off moves like Sasha or Shizuka.
Kimmie's outing was a disaster, but this is a good strong program that I think will work very well if she lands her jumps.

Click to expand...

Agree Sasha was good but far from her best. Still slow--slower than last season and slower than Campbell's, even though we only saw her LP then. In her PCS (factored) scores, Chor/Comp, 7.25, was her fourth highest average score. Her first highest, 7.50, was for Interpretation. Her second highest, 7.45 Perf/Exec.

Mao killed Sasha and Shizza in their TES scores:
Mao TES: 36.60
Sasha TES: 31.80
Shizza TES: 29.30

As Nymkfan suggests, Sasha and Shizza's TPC scores were higher than Mao's, but not by much:
Mao TPS: 27.36
Sasha TPS: 29.16
Shizza TPS: 28.68

I agree with NYmk that Kimmie's SP is a good, strong program, much better and more well-suited to Kimmie than her Egyptianesque LP.

jessilly said:

I feel Sasha is a little slow. The change in choreography reduced the excitment of the program. Sasha even removed some decorations of the red dress, and made the dress look like unfinished dress. I think her short program was perfect last year, in every aspect. She can update spins, but not too much in-betweens. Biellman spin is not her trade mark. No wonder she did not put it in programs before.

Mao Asada is a typical Asian girl. She did not pretend to be young at all. Most Asian girls look a lot younger than Western girls. Mao did a great job.

Kimmie skated right after Mao. It gave her some pressure. But Kimme made some improvement at speed, power and presentation this year.

Click to expand...

Jessilly re Sasha: ITA re Sasha being slow, as I said above. She was slow before she got injured, so I don't know what the problem is. I haven't compared tapes from last season's "Dark Eyes" to this one, so can't comment on the choreographic changes. I tend to come from the "less is more" school of costume design, but again, I'd have to compare tapes in order to comment.

ITA that Mao did a great job, but I'm not sure what you mean by these two statements: "Mao Asada is a typical Asian girl. She did not pretend to be young at all." Could you expand on what you mean by "typical Asian girl"?

Also, IMO, since Mao is young, she doesn't have to pretend to be young, LOL. Although I didn't like her "Carmen" the first time I saw it, now that I'm used to it, I do. It's kind of like listening to "Lady of Spain" at a hockey game--total disconnect in terms of character but who cares? Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that Mao and"Carmen" is like hockey and "Lady of Spain." With Mao, depending on your taste, the music and her characterization may or may not go together don't go together, but IMO they go together very well musically.

I agree that skating right after Mao tightened the screws on Kimmie and also agree that Kimmie's eed, power and presentation have improved since last season. Also, as I've said before, I think Kimmie SP suits her style much better than her LP.

Joesitz said:

Sasha has a wonderful program to the music she looks best at (Dark Eyes). It suits her personality. Why didn't she enlarge Malaguena instead of R&J for her LP?

The Wow extensions are her forte because the jumps are still weak. All in all, it was a good routine with plenty of pizzazz. She is not a lyrical skater and should avoid R&J and go for the flashy music where she can sell it to the audience. Well, I'm overreacting. I'll see the R&J tomorrow.

Mao beat Sasha because she is the little dahling of the lot. I think she is better than Oksana was in Lillehammer and, she is good enough to give Irina a run for the gold at the Olys if she gets there. She's had the international experience with the top tier skaters (and won).

Shizuka was not at her best but she has a powerful routine by TT. If she executes the SP the way TT wants her to, she will be the thrust at the Olys.

Elena is a good tech skater but it doesn't go beyond that, imo, and when the tech is off, so goes Elena.

Kimmie needs to do some serious thinking. the lutz take off was so perfect she forgot to rock the body over for the air turns. Her air turns were unbelievably on a 30 degree slant. the slip on the spiral was a bobble. She has gotten some style to her skating but I don't see her near Alissa in that area yet.

Joannie, was solid. I think her scores should have been higher

Click to expand...

"Sasha has a wonderful program to the music she looks best at (Dark Eyes). It suits her personality. Why didn't she enlarge Malaguena instead of R&J for her LP?" ITA about "Dark Eyes" and what a brilliant idea about expanding "Malaguena" for her LP! I think you are absofreakin'lutely right that Sasha is not on the lyrical end of the skating spectrum. I think she got that reputation when she was a tiny young thing nicknamed "the China doll" (blech), but not for her skating, just for her looks.

IMO she went with "R&J" because (a) she liked skating it as an exhibition and (b) it went over well as an exhibition, the latter being one of the worst reasons ever to choose an LP for any season, much less an Olympic one. With the time she has now, if somebody got a hold of her and hypnotized her, I think Sasha could take the elements of her "R&J" choreography and use Prokofiev's music with it, which I think would be an immense improvement. Rota's score is flat, it has no depth. Prokofiev's "R&J" was written by one of the composers in the pantheon and it was written for the ballet, that is for movement.

As Doggygirl said, if Sasha would just consult us first, she could save herself a lot of grief. OTOH, we'll see tomorrow if Sasha's made any significant changes to her "R&J" choreography, but I doubt it.

"Mao beat Sasha because she is the little dahling of the lot." Once again we will have to agree to disagree. Mao beat Sasha because she hammered the he!! out of her on the jumps and spins. With the same number of elements, 8, here's how they compared:
Mao TES: 36.60
Sasha TES: 31.80

On her non-jump elements, Mao had two 4s, two 3s, and one 2.
On her non-jump elements, Sasha had one 4, three 3s, and one 2.

I think all of Sasha's spins and her spiral step sequence are capable of being all 4s, with maybe one more like a 3. However, she has to perform them well. She did not perform most of her non-jump elements well at TEB. Where is the speedy spinner we saw just last season? Are Sasha's combo spins that much more difficult for her to do? If there are, I think she and Nicks should first try reworking the combos and if that doesn't work, try that California "spin doctor" Michelle once used or even another ladies champion who is a great spinner, eg, Lucinda Ruh, Denise Beillman, Liz Manley, etc.

ITA with your statements about Shizuka, Elena, Kimmie, and Joannie. Joannie's main scores:
TES: 30.20
TPC (factored): 26.88
In her average TPC scores, Joannie's highest, 6.85, was in Skating Skills, which tied with Interpretation. Her lowest, 6.50, was for Transitions.

Thanks Nymkfan, Jessilly, and Joesitz.

Rgirl

Great competiton.

Mao- Wow! What a 15 year old. The commentator (on NHK) remarked that the second jump was higher in one of her jump combinations. She also said that Mao grew more than 10 centimeters last year but it hasn't affected her jumps at all. I enjoyed her bielman the most out of all the bielmans I've seen this season.

Sasha-I wish she had chosen something else for her LP. But for all her consant mistakes she still has that "beautiful line" that Peggy likes to comment on.

Shizuka- I like her programs most of all. Much more than Irina's, for all the high scores the judges are giving her.

I have a question. Is it possible for someone to have mediocre technical content but still have really superb PCS scores? In theory it seems possible for somebody to be weak in jumps and spins but have great choreography and interpretation of the music, but it seems like if a skater doesn't have level4 elements and they fall on their jumps the PCS scores are automatically low too. Even if they are skating the same program it seems like scores for skating skills and choreography and interpretation are automatically lowered if they make mistakes on jumps.

perry125 said:

Great competiton.
I have a question. Is it possible for someone to have mediocre technical content but still have really superb PCS scores? In theory it seems possible for somebody to be weak in jumps and spins but have great choreography and interpretation of the music, but it seems like if a skater doesn't have level4 elements and they fall on their jumps the PCS scores are automatically low too. Even if they are skating the same program it seems like scores for skating skills and choreography and interpretation are automatically lowered if they make mistakes on jumps.

Click to expand...

In theory, I believe it is correct, but I don't think it is in practice. The judges, imo, can not possibly rate those PCS scores in seconds. What they do, is go by the GOE scores they gave the skater for technical prowess and scribble in some scores for the PCS. It's only human. JMO

Joe

It IS possible to have low technical content and still get high PCS scores. Every one of Jeff Buttle's FSs is rife with falls and popped jumps, yet he gets the same high scores he gets for his flawless SPs. Go figure.

Rgirl said:

I agree that skating right after Mao tightened the screws on Kimmie

Click to expand...

Actually Asada was #9 in the skate order and Meissner was #11. Anne-Sophie Calvez was #10.

Mao was the best by far. Not only in technique but overall 'looks' and presentation. Sorry but Sasha's barrell-like chest is not balletic. And her hiked-up spiral no longer cuts it, without speed, flow & deep edges of the others gals.

It's no longer enough to hike it up Pilates-style.

I was actually impressed with Meissner's skate. Two triple-triples, all clean jumps, and she is planning a triple axel in there as well. She will likely top the other women by 12-18 points in jump DD alone, and she doesnt seem to miss much, although she did in the short program here. Her presentation still looks juniorish, but it is clear she is working on it, she is trying unique spins that can give her higher values even if she isnt quite pulling it off right now. I was impressed with her effort, and maybe she is a dark horse for something this year.

Joesitz said:

Joannie, was solid. I think her scores should have been higher.

Joe

Click to expand...

I'd love to hear a bunch of opinions on Joannie's skating and programs this year. I can't quite put my finger on it, but she's just not impressing me overall the way she did last year with Firebird. She seems to have the elements of a good package - solid "tricks", Wilson choreo, nice presence on the ice, etc. etc. but her programs this year leave me feeling pretty ho-hum. Like there is something missing to distinguish her from the rest of the pack of top skaters. It's like a letter with no signature on it or something.

Is it just me? If it's not just me, can anyone put their finger on what's missing?

DG

Doggygirl, I know what you mean. I absolutely hate her SP music, and the program to me isn't much better. Very non-descript; nothing special at all. I do like her LP though ... but even there, I wish she had chosen something with a little more "umph" to it. I guess I fall into that whole "Olympic" music thing. I know it inevitably depends on what the skater does on the ice, but I always think it can't hurt if you have great music to help things along.

I was dissapointed to see Rochette not get higher scores here, especially in PCS. I think alot of it is her music, it is nice music, but it does not grab your attention, and it makes her performances seem a bit boring. She also had too many shaky landings, she needs to land jumps cleanly and with flow to do well.