Will Americans believe scores from U.S nationals mean they are favored for...in Turin

slutskayafan21 · Nov 28, 2005

Will Americans believe scores from U.S nationals mean they are favored for...in Turin

I am just curious if Americans analysts, writers, and fans are going to view the scores from U.S nationals as designating a skaters role going into the Olympics. I think we can safely assume whatever the scores are that they will be higher than they would be in an international event, but how analysts and writers take things out of proportion, that may not be fully realized. For example if Michelle or Sasha beat Irina's best score under COP will we here that Michelle or Sasha is now the Gold medal favorite for Turin? If Lysacek or Weir beat the best scores of Lambiel, Sandhu, and Buttle, at U.S Nationals will we here they are favored to medal in Turin? If Belbin/Agosto can somehow go to Turin, and beat Navka and Kostomarov's best score, under COP this year, at U.S nationals, will we here they are the gold medal favorites for Turin. If Inoue/Baldwin beat the best scores this year of Pang/Tang, Zhang/Zhang, and Petrova/Tikhonov will we here they are probable medalist in Turin?

screech · Nov 28, 2005

I think its likely. I mean, even at Canadians last year, with the score Joannie got in the LP, Tracy Wilson was saying how that was the highest score ever recorded for a womens LP in the world, and how that would make her a favourite (though that performance was bloody brilliant). They were also mentioning how Jeff's was the 2nd highest ever and he could challenge for a medal at worlds with that skate (on a good skating day). So yes, they will blow things out of proportion. Though Tracy did say that while those were the highest/2nd highest scores, they were with home judges which does affect things.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 28, 2005

screech said:
I think its likely. I mean, even at Canadians last year, with the score Joannie got in the LP, Tracy Wilson was saying how that was the highest score ever recorded for a womens LP in the world, and how that would make her a favourite (though that performance was bloody brilliant). They were also mentioning how Jeff's was the 2nd highest ever and he could challenge for a medal at worlds with that skate (on a good skating day). So yes, they will blow things out of proportion. Though Tracy did say that while those were the highest/2nd highest scores, they were with home judges which does affect things.

You are probably right. I dont mind too much either, since it makes it more fun to just laugh at some of the perceptions people have of the meaning of those scores. It would be less fun if they simply explained it in a realistic well considered manner.

For the record I thought Rochette's score at Canadian Nationals was perfectly reasonable, since it was a 125.xx with an excellent performance, clean performance, 7 triples including a triple/triple and two triple lutzes, and very good musical interpretation and performance qualities that night. Slutskaya for example would have scored around a 134 at Worlds had she done a different triple than a 3rd triple loop for one of her jumps, Cohen scored 122.xx with two errors, and a very good but not exceptional or flawless skate. That being said she probably still would not have gotten that score elsewhere.

Frau Muller · Nov 28, 2005

It's no longer a question of perception. With COP, we now have facts -- in black and white. By the time the competition begins in Turin, there should be no surprises. We will know the maximum points that a competitor could earn...unless programs are quickly altered in 2-3 weeks prior to Olympics.

The old days of touchy-feely style and reputations should be over.

From what we know so far, the gold medalists in Turin will be Slutskaya, Plushenko, Navka/Kostomarov and Totmianina/Marinin, if all skate to their potential. The only surprises in Turin could come from skaters who have not performed all season, prior to Turin (Kwan, if she gets a 'bye' at Nationals and premieres her programs in Turin ....ditto Shen/Zhao....ditto Fusar-Poli/Margaglio).

slutskayafan21 · Nov 28, 2005

Frau Muller said:
It's no longer a question of perception. With COP, we now have facts -- in black and white. By the time the competition begins in Turin, there should be no surprises. We will know the maximum points that a competitor could earn...unless programs are quickly altered in 2-3 weeks prior to Olympics.

The old days of touchy-feely style and reputations should be over.

From what we know so far, the gold medalists in Turin will be Slutskaya, Plushenko, Navka/Kostomarov and Totmianina/Marinin, if all skate to their potential. The only surprises in Turin could come from skaters who have not performed all season, prior to Turin (Kwan, if she gets a 'bye' at Nationals and premieres her programs in Turin ....ditto Shen/Zhao....ditto Fusar-Poli/Margaglio).

I agree that the COP gives us accurate benchmarks and standards to go by. However you have to remember the judges tend to give out higher scores, even under the new COP, at their own National events, than at International events. Just look at alot of the scores from the Canadian Nationals last year. So scores from your own Nationals are a flawed barometer, one could speculate on a performance being good enough to get the scores needed internationaly anyway, but their own National score can hardly serve as solid proof of this. So my question is related to whether American journalists, analysts, writers, and even more naive fans, would recognize this when considering the scores for U.S skaters at their own Nationals or not.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 28, 2005

Despite the high scores at American, Canadian, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, French, etc. NATIONALS, the bottom line is that there is a WIN, PLACE, and SHOW regardless of the scores. It's an iternal matter for all these countries.

What was it that made you select the Americans?

Joe

slutskayafan21 · Nov 28, 2005

Joesitz said:
Despite the high scores at American, Canadian, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, French, etc. NATIONALS, the bottom line is that there is a WIN, PLACE, and SHOW regardless of the scores. It's an iternal matter for all these countries.

What was it that made you select the Americans?

Joe

Well since the Canadians already this that last year, or atleast apeared to by everything that was said and written in the aftermath of Nationals last year; and I was curious if the Americans would follow suit.

As for overseas, for most of us we obviously wont see their Nationals, and while we can follow the scores, getting nearly the same perspective and insight is nearly impossably, wouldnt you agree.

nymkfan51 · Nov 28, 2005

Well, I'm American and will be at U.S.Nationals ... but I won't be fooled, no matter what the marks are. I already know who's going to win! :rofl:

R.D. · Nov 28, 2005

nymkfan51 said:
Well, I'm American and will be at U.S.Nationals ... but I won't be fooled, no matter what the marks are. I already know who's going to win!

Ditto.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 28, 2005

At the very least it will be interesting to see what scores Americans pull at Nationals, believable or not. Hopefully the ones who do skate great skate just as well in Turin, so we can get a real perspective too. :clap:

BronzeisGolden · Nov 28, 2005

I agree. I think the scores at any National Championship are a bit inflated. But, in this instance, there are so many nations with viable medal contenders: Russia has Slutskaya, the U.S. has Kwan and Cohen, Japan has Arakawa and others, Italy has Kostner, and so on and so on. I'd like to see how these non-U.S. athletes are scored at their nationals, and perhaps even see from translated sports articles if/how they are hyped in their native countries. I know the American media is a hype machine, but I have to believe there are other nations that do the same. Japan and Russia certainly have many reasons to do so.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 28, 2005

I bet Slutskaya and Plushenko's National scores will be ridiculous if they use COP. :laugh:

Panther2000 · Nov 28, 2005

Joesitz said:
Despite the high scores at American, Canadian, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, French, etc. NATIONALS, the bottom line is that there is a WIN, PLACE, and SHOW regardless of the scores. It's an iternal matter for all these countries.

What was it that made you select the Americans?

Joe

Hello, I thought the samething. Each country blows up the scores at their own nationl competitions. But, as usal for some people they think that only the americans do it. Yeah Right. :rofl:

Panther2000 · Nov 28, 2005

BronzeisGolden said:
I agree. I think the scores at any National Championship are a bit inflated. But, in this instance, there are so many nations with viable medal contenders: Russia has Slutskaya, the U.S. has Kwan and Cohen, Japan has Arakawa and others, Italy has Kostner, and so on and so on. I'd like to see how these non-U.S. athletes are scored at their nationals, and perhaps even see from translated sports articles if/how they are hyped in their native countries. I know the American media is a hype machine, but I have to believe there are other nations that do the same. Japan and Russia certainly have many reasons to do so.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

Yeah the hype machine will be in overdrive at warp speed

kyla2 · Nov 28, 2005

Grain of Salt

I take any Nationals score with a grain of salt. Like Joe said-it's win, place and show more than anything. They are inflated in every country, whether they skate under the 6.0 system or CoP.

Ladskater · Nov 28, 2005

slutskayafan21 said:
I am just curious if Americans analysts, writers, and fans are going to view the scores from U.S nationals as designating a skaters role going into the Olympics. I think we can safely assume whatever the scores are that they will be higher than they would be in an international event, but how analysts and writers take things out of proportion, that may not be fully realized. For example if Michelle or Sasha beat Irina's best score under COP will we here that Michelle or Sasha is now the Gold medal favorite for Turin? If Lysacek or Weir beat the best scores of Lambiel, Sandhu, and Buttle, at U.S Nationals will we here they are favored to medal in Turin? If Belbin/Agosto can somehow go to Turin, and beat Navka and Kostomarov's best score, under COP this year, at U.S nationals, will we here they are the gold medal favorites for Turin. If Inoue/Baldwin beat the best scores this year of Pang/Tang, Zhang/Zhang, and Petrova/Tikhonov will we here they are probable medalist in Turin?

Not sure what you mean, but here in Canada it is still up to Skate Canada in the end which skater/skaters end up going to the Olympics which means they still have to prove themselves through the course of the year.

Last year for example our Canadian Ladies champion - Cynthia Phaneuf did not represent us in the Worlds Sr. event - instead they sent Joannie Rochette who came second in Canadians that year. They felt - perhaps a mistake on their part - that Cynthia did not have enough experience yet.

As for the hype - it follows every skater and athlete for that matter to the Olympics - no matter what the country. It's not exclusive to Canada or the US. Naturally we are pulling for our own skaters. Believe me, it's harder for the skaters than we can imagine. As Kurt, Brian and Elvis would advise any skater - "stay away from the press."

:agree:

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 29, 2005

kyla2 said:
I take any Nationals score with a grain of salt. Like Joe said-it's win, place and show more than anything. They are inflated in every country, whether they skate under the 6.0 system or CoP.

and just to go a bit further:

WILL WE SEE A 10 IN THE SCORES???

Joe

euterpe · Nov 29, 2005

Last season, Joannie Rochette's Canadian Nationals scores were so high because she received PCS scores in the high 7s and low 8s. She had never then, and still has never now, received scores even close to that from ISU judges.

It's like 6.0s for presentation, common at US Nationals but rare at an ISU competition.

The bottom line is Nationals scores mean nothing at the international level.

FreeKatie · Nov 29, 2005

I think its natural at a National competition (esp. before Olympics) for judges to give inflated scores becuase they want to boost the confidence of the skaters that will be competing for their country.

R.D. · Nov 29, 2005

FreeKatie said:
I think its natural at a National competition (esp. before Olympics) for judges to give inflated scores becuase they want to boost the confidence of the skaters that will be competing for their country.

If anything, it's quite misleading. You want to score your competitors on the same level as the international competitions to give your skaters feedback as to where you stand against the world. Of course, easier said than done since you have only national judges...

Will Americans believe scores from U.S nationals mean they are favored for...in Turin

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

screech

slutskayafan21

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Frau Muller

slutskayafan21

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Joesitz (RIP)

slutskayafan21

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nymkfan51

R.D.

slutskayafan21

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BronzeisGolden

slutskayafan21

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Panther2000

Panther2000

kyla2

Ladskater

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Joesitz (RIP)

euterpe

FreeKatie

R.D.

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