LADIES Free from TV

Mathman said:

More generally, on the whether Sasha wuz-robbed, Sasha did receive the highest PCS in both the short and the long programs. So if you think -- as I do -- that Sasha gave a very lovely performance, the judges agreed.

On the other hand, I don't think that Sasha deserved to be light-years ahead of the competition in PCS. Her many small technical errors -- as pointed out above, she got negative GOEs on five of her seven jumping passes -- really precludes the possibilty of giving her Irina-like numbers in Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance/Execution. And totters, two-foots and falls detract from the choreography and intepretation, too.

Again, I agree with the judges that Sasha gave the best performance, with respect to program components. BUT...

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With all due respect, IMO Sasha was very overmarked in the PCS for the performance. She was sloppy and her edges wobblier than usual. Her subpar edging was apparent in the spiral sequence, which couldn't even compare with the likes of Arakawa, Rochette, or Asada. Her spins were also quite slow. By chance I watched her LP once with the music off, and it was immediately obvious that she had absolutely no speed or mood variation throughout. The only interesting part of the program was the circular step sequence, but other than that it was very bland IMO. Her SS shouldn't even be anywhere near that of Arakawa, and should be lower than Maniachenko, and I really don't see that much interpretation. I think Mao not only beat her fair and square, but should also have PCS close to Cohen if not as high, because she has better skating skills, transitions, very comparable PE. The CH and IN aren't my cup of tea, but neither were Cohen's. I thought Arakawa and Rochette were undermarked in the competition, but what's new?

not what i said

Joesitz said:

Interesting theory. It's Kwan's fault that Cohen didn't win.

Joe

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I never said it was MKs fault. It is USFSAs fault & i'm sure they thought the publicity of MK beating the record would be good press. God knows they need good press after SLC. They did indeed announce at 2004 Nationals that it was the last year for 6.0 to be used. Got a better reason they would renig on their word & fall behind the rest of the world right before Olympics on purpose?

Mathman said:

More generally, on the whether Sasha wuz-robbed, Sasha did receive the highest PCS in both the short and the long programs. So if you think -- as I do -- that Sasha gave a very lovely performance, the judges agreed.

On the other hand, I don't think that Sasha deserved to be light-years ahead of the competition in PCS. Her many small technical errors -- as pointed out above, she got negative GOEs on five of her seven jumping passes -- really precludes the possibilty of giving her Irina-like numbers in Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance/Execution. And totters, two-foots and falls detract from the choreography and intepretation, too.

Again, I agree with the judges that Sasha gave the best performance, with respect to program components. BUT...

Come on, guys. Sasha gave Mao a head start of 11 points on jump elements, 47.5 to 36.5. I don't care how wonderful you are, you are not going to make up 11 points in the PCS (do the math, LOL).

MM

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I love watching the skates first, and looking at the score sheets second. The "watching first" part just lets me enjoy the skates. Looking at the score sheets just tells me what the judges/tech panel saw, and scored accordingly.

I'm cool with this.

DG

sk8addict said:

I never said it was MKs fault. It is USFSAs fault & i'm sure they thought the publicity of MK beating the record would be good press. God knows they need good press after SLC. They did indeed announce at 2004 Nationals that it was the last year for 6.0 to be used. Got a better reason they would renig on their word & fall behind the rest of the world right before Olympics on purpose?

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Nope. Your theory is as good as anyone else's.

Joe

Shine, I think team Asada is not putting too much effort in her packaging, and this is her first senior yr. Did she even put on make up? She is 15 and looks younger, so flower waltz and dance of sugar plum fairy from a children's ballet suit her for now. It is no small feat for her to beat Cohen fair and square according to the rules, and I give credit to the judges for having enough guts to mark her appropriately.

shine said:

On the other hand, I loved Mutter's performance of Beethoven's violin concerto In D..the one which she played along side Karajan.

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Mutter as a teenager was amazing, I think some of her best recordings came from her early years with Karajan. You love her LvB VC with Karajan, but how about her live recording of Beethoven VC with Masur in 2002. I have friends who actually attended the concert and came away with , Mutter was so self indulgent that she changed tempo multiple times in one phrase. Sigh.. such a talent, and she took a direction of Mutter first, listen to what I can do. Then there were the entire recording of Beethoven's violin sonata in 2003 :banging: it was all about Mutter, and little or no Beethoven. If you have time look up her Beethoven VC and Beethoven violin sonata at amazon.com The review were all over the place ranging from 1 star to 5 stars. The amazon in house reviewer call her showboating.

IMO, no star is bigger than the composer, Mutter certainly is not greater than Beethoven. I also think no competitive skater, (no matter how huge is her fandom ) is bigger than the competitive sport, so the approach of performer/ skater first and music second is showboating, more in line with e.g pro skating.

Like some Italian opera stars of previous centuries used the music to showcase the remarkable virtuosity of their own unique voices. (The composers didn't like it, but hey -- it's the stars that pay the bills, LOL.)

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But MM audience like you pay the bills too.

Rgirl said:

I've also been fortunate enough to see Sasha compete live. It was the '03 Campbell's at Madison Square Garden, which usually fully deserves the name "cheesefest" by every skater's moldy performance. But at this Campbell's, Sasha debuted Tarasova's black and white "Swan Lake." New York City gets almost no competitions--venues too expensive--so the Garden was packed. I'd say Sasha blew the roof off at best and at worst gave a stunning, dramatic, heartfelt performance.
Joe and Nymkfan were also there, and I'd be interested in hearing their reactions, positive or negative. Rgirl

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I agree Rgirl, she was magnificent there. I have to be totally honest ... I am a Michelle fan, first and foremost ... I never root for her opposition. I don't root for them to fall or anything, but I most certainly don't want them to win ... that's for sure!
I remember after that event thinking "oh boy, this is not good." I felt TT was a perfect fit for Sasha and I was definitely concerned that Sasha was on the verge of something big. Problem was/is ... that has just never fully materialized. She has skated well at times, but for whatever reason, just can't seem to skate without mistakes in the really big events. We have all speculated a thousand times why that is, but we are no closer to a real answer now than we were then. She has all the components ... it's just putting them together that continually falls short. I think (for whatever it's worth) that her jumping technique is not as good as Dick or Peggy would have you believe. Her take-offs and landings are frequently shaky ... the only part of her jumps that is truly good is the in-air positions. So maybe she will never/rarely manage to get 7 jumps right in one program. Maybe that is asking too much of her.
And it's interesting that she is now being accused of the same things Michelle was accused of a few years ago. Too cautious ... doesn't take the risks, etc.
It's not hard to understand. Things are always easier on the way up, when expectations are low. It's another thing entirely when you have something to lose ... when folks expect things from you.

sk8addict said:

I never said it was MKs fault. It is USFSAs fault & i'm sure they thought the publicity of MK beating the record would be good press. God knows they need good press after SLC. They did indeed announce at 2004 Nationals that it was the last year for 6.0 to be used. Got a better reason they would renig on their word & fall behind the rest of the world right before Olympics on purpose?

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When did they announce that 2004 Nats would be the last 6.0 event? IMO, idea that that the USFSA would harm most of its team to insure that Michelle won Nats is absurd, since they could always hold up her PCS scores. More importantly, if Nats was going to be CoP, I think Michelle would have adjusted for it at an earlier date -- so again, there was no reason to delay implementation of the CoP for that reason.

The result of Sasha's each program performance looks like Sasha hersilf first, and the music second. I doubt that she or her coach intended to achieve this result. Sasha did fair job to interprete each piece of music she skated to, but her unique body build, her gymnastics and ballet training, and the extraordinary flexibility allow her to do certain positions and moves that no other skaters can do, and they do look great. So when people watch her programs, mostly pay attention to each flexibile trick she can do and feel that Sasha mostly put herself first rather than music. As for her speed, I do agree that she is not a fast skater. I remember at the SA or SC a couple of years ago she and Carolina were on the same warm up ice. Carolina skated much faster than Sasha. But at the end Sasha placed higher than Carollina.

Doggygirl said:

I love watching the skates first, and looking at the score sheets second. The "watching first" part just lets me enjoy the skates. Looking at the score sheets just tells me what the judges/tech panel saw, and scored accordingly.

I'm cool with this.

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Thanks for putting into words how I feel, too.

In this competiton, I was perfectly content, watching Sasha's program, to go along with Paul Wylie and Susie Wynn -- Aw, look how pretty she is, yes, we've missed her the last couple of months.

Then afterward it was also interesting to go over the judging protocols and see where she gained or lost points relative to the other skaters.

MM

If the COP system is good enough and got no argument from Cohen fans when Cohen was placed ahead of Carolina, the same system should be good enough to place Mao ahead of Cohen. Susie et al need to learn to accept it.

I don't think watching Cohen's flexibility and tricks give people the impression that her approach is Cohen first, music second. Lucindah Ruh probably out flexible and outspin Cohen by a mile, and she never gives me the impression that she treats music as background to her skating. The very first time that I noticed Sasha's appoach was her 2000 exhibition program un bel di. She was 15 and looked and shaped much younger, why on earth did she skate to the words of Un Bel Di. If she was trying to interpret Cho Cho San's longing of physical love with Pinkerton, then it is worse than trying to be Loita on ice. Watching that program, there was not much evidence that Cohen was trying to interpret Cho Cho San's One Fine Day, therefore it is quite obvious that Cohen was not interpreting the piece at all, and the music and words of Un bel di served as background. Whether Cohen and team planned it or not, she had taken the approach of Cohen first music second. Another example was the Carmen program, and it was much emphasized at the time that Cohen choreographed it. I remember in the section of music La Fleur que tu m'avais jetee, which is full of pathos, Cohen was skating on flats doing her Sashacurl(TM). No one expects her to plea his love to Carmen like Don Jose, but the essence of La fleur is pathos and despair, Cohen was trying to be pretty, La fleur's essence is no pretty, so again IMO the approach taken was music as background. Whether Cohen planned it or not, the section of R&J chosen is tafelmusik, again background music. There is no right or wrong with this approach, however fans can't expect judges to totally ignore the rules just b/c Cohen looks pretty, and music just happened to be played in the background. She has her tricks and often is rewarded for it, and when other skaters who have technical tricks, and good PCS skills outskate Cohen, these skaters should be fairly rewarded w/o the Susie et al whining

Gezando- I take it that it's very obvious you like a skater that can relate to her music. I think some of the comments you make are rather interesting when you are not going after a specific poster. I always thought Cohen's skating style was "Me, me me." But at Campbell's, I thought I saw her actually make an effort to "feel" the music more. (I haven't seen TEB performance yet though.) That's just my personal thought.

Red Dog said:

Gezando- I take it that it's very obvious you like a skater that can relate to her music..

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Actually, I agree with judges who apply the rules and reward skaters who interpret the character of the music.

gezando said:

If the COP system is good enough and got no argument from Cohen fans when Cohen was placed ahead of Carolina, the same system should be good enough to place Mao ahead of Cohen. Susie et al need to learn to accept it.

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I agree. I was surprised with Susie and Paul's gushing. They never missed a beat, stepping right in where Dick and Peggy left off.

I don't blame myself for saying, ooh, aah, how pretty -- that's why I watch the sport in the first place. But these commentators are skaters themselves. They should be able to see the same things, pro and con, that the judges do.

MM

gezando said:

Actually, I agree with judges who apply the rules and reward skaters who interpret the character of the music.

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Which is why Michelle remains without peer or rival.

But won't it be fun to watch how Mao progresses as she assays more and more subtle and demanding works

MM

gezando said:

Actually, I agree with judges who apply the rules and reward skaters who interpret the character of the music.

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Actually Joe Inman came in the Forum a few years back and explained the concept of 'character of the music'. One doesn't have to tell the story of a written work. It is more about how the music is written, tempo, timing, fast, slow,
loud, soft, etc. Of course, I like to see what the skater can do with that.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Actually Joe Inman came in the Forum a few years back and explained the concept of 'character of the music'. One doesn't have to tell the story of a written work. It is more about how the music is written, tempo, timing, fast, slow,
loud, soft, etc. Of course, I like to see what the skater can do with that.

Joe

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I agree with you. Joe Inman also judges piano competitions. I don't expect a skater to tell the story in 4 mins. Music is more than tempo, timing, rthymn, harmony, melody etc (these are the ingredients of music that can be analyzed). There is also an emotional and spiritual side to msuic, the aspect of music that makes or breaks an opera, or to a lesser extend ballet. I seriously doubt when Inman was judging a piano competition, he just look at whether the soloist is following the tempo as written by the composer. Inman probably judges the depth of feeling a soloist expresses etc. Take the example of La Fleur, it is more than just a tempo, timing slow fast etc, Bizet put a lot of pathos and despair in this particular piece, I speculate a skater who is able to skate to the tempo and the pathos of this piece will receive more reward from a judge, and IMO when a skater is just using La Fleur as background to showboat her / his tricks then s/he is not interpreting the character of the music in depth.

gezando said:

I agree with you. Joe Inman also judges piano competitions. I don't expect a skater to tell the story in 4 mins. Music is more than tempo, timing, rthymn, harmony, melody etc (these are the ingredients of music that can be analyzed). There is also an emotional and spiritual side to msuic, the aspect of music that makes or breaks an opera, or to a lesser extend ballet. I seriously doubt when Inman was judging a piano competition, he just look at whether the soloist is following the tempo as written by the composer. Inman probably judges the depth of feeling a soloist expresses etc. Take the example of La Fleur, it is more than just a tempo, timing slow fast etc, Bizet put a lot of pathos and despair in this particular piece, I speculate a skater who is able to skate to the tempo and the pathos of this piece will receive more reward from a judge, and IMO when a skater is just using La Fleur as background to showboat her / his tricks then s/he is not interpreting the character of the music in depth.

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Thanks Gez - I'll save this for future reference when character of music comes up. It's more than a pose. It's heartfelt throughout while keeping with the nuances of the music.

Joe

bdreampixie said:

Reading this thread makes me wonder if I was watching some other competition.

Shizuka is the only lady that IMO was robbed. Her strength, flow, speed, power and control was the best of anyone there. Her PCS should have been the highest.

Mao's PCS were fine. She covers the ice really well, has good edges, flow. The best thing about her skating is the breezy quality that she has. An ease of movement that is very pleasing. She meets every single requirement for high PCS marks, so her score is fair.

Sasha. I just don't get the "wuz robbed". She was slow, landed only one or two jumps solidly, her power and edges aren't at the level of Joannie or Shiz. Her PCS were generous. Having nice line and carriage is only one part of the equation. The choreo is much improved from Campbells, but nothing special. I've seen Sasha live at Nats and have come away completely unimpressed. TV does Sasha a lot of favors. I read enough live reports from TEB and almost all felt the result were fair.

BTW, Sasha and Shiz's spirals are designed to be L4, but they're not holding some of those positions long enough. In order for a spiral to count it needs to be held 3 seconds, if it's held for less it doesn't count at all. Sasha didn't hold her Charlotte, and the first part of the COE long enough. Shiz's fan spiral was also not held long enough.

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I felt that Shizuka's PCS scores were too low, if a case is being made for Sasha's (wrt Mao's). I loved watching Shizuka and Sasha's LP's (I will get to Mao later). Even with a major flaw in each, these were two mature, beautiful skaters. I love the security of Shizuka's edges and jumps. Sasha is weak in these. Sasha is more beautiful to watch- her extensions are breath taking, but that is not the only criterion for the PCS scores. I would have placed Shizuka higher. Her program was more sophisticated and she skated really well.

Mao is a delightful young skater- she reminded me of a young Kristi Yamaguchi. I hope we will see her for many more years and possibly as Olympic champion some day. In this competition I felt that even though she skated very well, she lacked the maturity and sophistication of Sasha and Shizuka. She does have great ice coverage though, so I am not sure that her PCS scores were totally wrong. I have not done a detailed analysis like RGirl, so it is hard for me to come up with an answer. If this was a 6.0 system, I would have placed her a bit lower. As Sasha said, the COP is a points game. Probably the 3A and the 3-3 in Asada's program carried her to higher overall marks.

Vash