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Thread: LADIES Free from TV

  1. #16
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog
    First time I've ever heard a Kwaniac say that
    MM - You've been taken out of context and very cleverly too.

    Joe

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    I think we can be hopeful that next season there may be three Callers. If all 3, or 2 of 3 agree on the non-jump levels or that a jump is what the skater intended it to be, ie, a 3/3 rather than a 3/2, then majority rules. If all three disagree, eg, a level 2, 3, and 4 for the same spin, then I say use either the mean or the score closest to the mean. Right now, under the right circumstances, which so far have happened pretty often, the Caller alone can decide who is where on the podium and even who is on or off the podium, especially for the bronze.
    Your wish is Speedy's command, sort of. There are three callers. That is, there is a Technical Specialist, an Assistant Technical Specialist, and a Technical Controller who work together on the calls. In the case of a dispute, two out of three majority rules (according to Hockeyfan on the other thread.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    Where does one find the names of the Technical Specialists?
    From this page

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=83

    click on "results" for the event you want. Then click on "panel of judges" for the segment, and you will see the names of the tech crew as well as the names and nationalities of the judges.

    For the ladies at TEB the Technical Controller was Ann Hardy-Thomas of France (the ISU tends to give this position to the host country for the Grand Prix events), the Technical Specialist ("caller") was (Ms.) Pirjo Uimonen (Finland), and the Assistant Technical Specialist was Scott Davis (USA).

    MM
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-29-2005 at 10:46 AM.

  3. #18
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but Mao's peformance was as cute as Oksana Baiul's. If Oksana could prance around to My Fair Lady, then Mao can do a cutesy number with the Nutcracker.

    Yes, Like Nancy's serious skate, Sasha's serious skate did not win over the judges. But hey, if judges go for the "youngest ever to win" syndrome then there is nothing to argue about in figure skating. (I would love to see the names and nationalities of the judges but you know me.)

    Getting that off my chest. I agree the old 'whole package' look is gone when there is a competing youngster on the ice. This hurt Sasha who clearly had the 'whole package'. I don't blame Sasha for examining the scores. However, I think her extremely high extensions have become 'old hat' now and that is not carrying her through the Technical scores. She does need to up the ante. A plus 3 on a Level 4 spiral will not overtake a 3x3. I think you are agreeing with me now that high tech scores flow into the PCS scores.

    Which brings me to Shiz who has the goods to win the competition but she's got to skate 2 perfect routines and not just one and bring back that 3x3x2 which rocked Dortmund.

    Joannie is undermarked. She has a very intricate choreographed routine that the judges nor the public are actually seeing. Of course, skating it perfectly is a must for her.

    I missed seeing Kimmie. Apparently she was good enough to beat Elena or someboday. she moved up a notch.

    Joe

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife
    Here's something I never thought I'd say.... Sasha was robbed...
    You took the words out of my mouth, Kwanford. Sasha's skate was lovely and it held my interest throughout, which no one else did in this event except the pairs. The music seemed fine to me, after all the criticism. So was the choreaography.

    I am not a Sasha fanatic particularly, but there has to be some place in the sport for beautiful skating; otherwise, what's the point?

    MM

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    (I would love to see the names and nationalities of the judges but you know me.)
    Referee Mr. Paolo PIZZOCARI Italy
    Technical Controller Ms. Ann HARDY-THOMAS France
    Technical Specialist Ms. Pirjo UIMONEN Finland
    Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Scott DAVIS USA

    Judge No.1 Ms. Marina BESCHEA ROM
    Judge No.2 Mr. Francis BETSCH FRA
    Judge No.3 Mr. Rolf PIPOH GER
    Judge No.4 Ms. Gale TANGER USA
    Judge No.5 Mr. William THOMPSON CAN
    Judge No.6 Ms. Mieko FUJIMORI JPN
    Judge No.7 Ms. Marina SANAIA RUS
    Judge No.8 Ms. Irina MEDVEDEVA UKR
    Judge No.9 Ms. Katarina HENRIKSSON SWE
    Judge No.10 Ms. Olga ZAKOVA CZE

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    Specifically for Sasha, here's how I evaluated her Spiral Step sequence based on edges, speed, and positions...(etc.)
    JFC, what a post, Rgirl!! Makes me glad I got up this morning after all!

    MM

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    Funny how ESPN failed to mention that Sasha's free program was deemed THIRD best (behind Arakawa's)> hee-hee....

    I totally agree with the judges' scores for Sasha's presentation, versus Mao's. Sasha is a cold automaton. Lines & high-hiked legs alone do not cut it. Mao was ALIVE & charismatic, in addition to showing great extensions. LIFE above ROBOTS. Furthermore....see the lean of Mao's edges, compared with Sasha's. Speed, flow, lean, carefreeness....that, too, is part of the presentation scores. Not just hiking-up of legs, in a self-contained world.

    Wake up & smell the coffee regarding Sasha's aloofness (& Johnny Weir's, too). Just cuz they're AMERICANS doesn't give them instant charisma & warmth.
    Last edited by Frau Muller; 11-29-2005 at 11:28 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller
    Funny how ESPN failed to mention that Sasha's free program was deemed THIRD best (behind Arakawa's)> hee-hee....

    I totally agree with the judges' scores for Sasha's presentation, versus Mao's. Sasha is a cold automaton. Lines & high-hiked legs alone do not cut it. Mao was ALIVE & charismatic, in addition to showing great extensions. LIFE above ROBOTS. Furthermore....see the lean of Mao's edges, compared with Sasha's. Speed, flow, lean, carefreeness....that, too, is part of the presentation scores. Not just hiking-up of legs.
    FINALLY, a non "Cohen-was-robbed-boo-hoo" post!!!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Referee Mr. Paolo PIZZOCARI Italy
    Technical Controller Ms. Ann HARDY-THOMAS France
    Technical Specialist Ms. Pirjo UIMONEN Finland
    Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Scott DAVIS USA

    Judge No.1 Ms. Marina BESCHEA ROM
    Judge No.2 Mr. Francis BETSCH FRA
    Judge No.3 Mr. Rolf PIPOH GER
    Judge No.4 Ms. Gale TANGER USA
    Judge No.5 Mr. William THOMPSON CAN
    Judge No.6 Ms. Mieko FUJIMORI JPN
    Judge No.7 Ms. Marina SANAIA RUS
    Judge No.8 Ms. Irina MEDVEDEVA UKR
    Judge No.9 Ms. Katarina HENRIKSSON SWE
    Judge No.10 Ms. Olga ZAKOVA CZE
    Thanks MM -The Technical Specialist is the actual Caller (Yes?)

    Regional Groupings: 3 Eastern Euros; 2 Central Euros; 2 Western Euros;
    2 N.amricans; 1 Asian.

    Does anyone see anything here? I'm basically ok with this set up.

    Joe

  10. #25
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    Hi Rgirl Caller! (I like you in that role!!)

    To add to MM's clarification of the technical panel role....

    Maybe this was your intent to mix the roles of the technical panel and the judges in your descriptions of the various elements, because I liked reading your evaluations! But just in case there is a misunderstanding, the technical people have nothing to do with evaluating the quality of an element performed. As an example, a level 3 spiral is called based on meeting the defined criteria - number of postions, edge changes, meeting the time requirement for holding positions, etc. So it is possible to view a great spiral (in terms of how it is performed), a mediocre spiral and a craptacular spiral that are all level three in difficulty. The GOE that the judges assign is where to look on the "quality front" where reward/penalty is to be given for things you mention like speed, deep edges, and all of that.

    If you look at the spirals for Mao, Shiz and Sasha, yes they were all called as level 3. In terms of the "quality" here's how the judges called it (using all 10). Mao received 3 GOE of +1, and 7 GOE of 0. After factoring she got a total score of 3.3 for this element.

    Shiz received 5 +2 GOE and 5 +1 GOE for hers. So after factoring she got a total of 3.9 points for this element.

    Sasha received 10 +2 GOE for her spiral, for a total score on this element of 4.1 points.

    I will wait for someone who is better at assessing the technical composition of each of the spirals for an opinion on whether each of these 3 spirals met the ISU rules for L3. But on the GOE side, I think I'm OK with how the judges handled the GOE.

    Before I throw in the towel and call the NJS a mess, I want to see a live competition. The reports I read posted by people who were at the event seemed to have far less issue with the ladies results than those of us watching on TV only. And I've heard time and again that speed and ice coverage are harder to determine on TV than live, and I've also read several posts where people comment that Sasha sometimes looks better on TV than she does live - primarily due to the speed / coverage issues.

    At any rate, I'm giving it more time...

    DG

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    Wow!

    I can't believe it, all of us agree (with one exception-Oh what a surprise). This is very heartening to see such a wonderful skate from Sasha given the respect it deserves. Shizuka too. They are two gorgeous skaters.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller
    Funny how ESPN failed to mention that Sasha's free program was deemed THIRD best (behind Arakawa's)> hee-hee....

    I totally agree with the judges' scores for Sasha's presentation, versus Mao's. Sasha is a cold automaton. Lines & high-hiked legs alone do not cut it. Mao was ALIVE & charismatic, in addition to showing great extensions. LIFE above ROBOTS. Furthermore....see the lean of Mao's edges, compared with Sasha's. Speed, flow, lean, carefreeness....that, too, is part of the presentation scores. Not just hiking-up of legs, in a self-contained world.

    Wake up & smell the coffee regarding Sasha's aloofness (& Johnny Weir's, too). Just cuz they're AMERICANS doesn't give them instant charisma & warmth.
    Generally, I'd agree with you about Sasha's cold presentation, but that wasn't the case in Paris... (please see Rgirl's EXTREMLY elegant post for the reasons why....)

    I do, however, totally disagree regarding the American comment... I could say that Sasha & Johnny might be taking the "Russian Style" a bit too far, but then that might be rude to Russian fans, ya think? :sheesh:
    Last edited by Kwanford Wife; 11-29-2005 at 03:38 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller
    Funny how ESPN failed to mention that Sasha's free program was deemed THIRD best (behind Arakawa's)> hee-hee....

    I totally agree with the judges' scores for Sasha's presentation, versus Mao's. Sasha is a cold automaton. Lines & high-hiked legs alone do not cut it. Mao was ALIVE & charismatic, in addition to showing great extensions. LIFE above ROBOTS. Furthermore....see the lean of Mao's edges, compared with Sasha's. Speed, flow, lean, carefreeness....that, too, is part of the presentation scores. Not just hiking-up of legs, in a self-contained world.

    Wake up & smell the coffee regarding Sasha's aloofness (& Johnny Weir's, too). Just cuz they're AMERICANS doesn't give them instant charisma & warmth.
    Mao's PCS scores, which are not a substitute for the "old presentation mark," and I wish Terry Gannon would stop saying that, were generally too high, IMO.

    I agree that Sasha can be what I'd call "remote," that is, concentrating too hard on not making mistakes, which usually ensures that she makes them. But aloof, remote, basically same difference.

    However, this "R/J" performance was anything but aloof, remote, or robotic. I could feel Sasha's heart beating with "Romeo, Romeo, where for art thou?" through the entire program. I've also been fortunate enough to see Sasha compete live. It was the '03 Campbell's at Madison Square Garden, which usually fully deserves the name "cheesefest" by every skater's moldy performance. But at this Campbell's, Sasha debuted Tarasova's black and white "Swan Lake." New York City gets almost no competitions--venues too expensive--so the Garden was packed. I'd say Sasha blew the roof off at best and at worst gave a stunning, dramatic, heartfelt performance.

    Joe and Nymkfan were also there, and I'd be interested in hearing their reactions, positive or negative.

    Sasha has run hot and cold over the past four years in the "feel the depths of the program/move the audience" department. A particular low point was Nationals '03 when Sasha skated Tarasova's "Rach" program like a bendable Barbie doll.

    But the question on the table is Sasha's LP at TEB compared to Asada's. Mao had that wonderful quality of a kid running around as fast as she could just because she loves to. But it was all one note, which is fine at her age. It's an "Aww, what a cutie!" kind of response, which again is fine, that is for the audience. It shouldn't elicit those kinds of scores from the judges.

    However, if you muted the music, I don't think you could tell the difference between "Waltz of the Flowers" and "Snow." It lacked the breadth, 3/4 time, and largeness of the "Waltz of the Flowers." There were also a couple of "little girl" skipping type moves and the miming of the "Shhhh" finger to the mouth. I realize that's the choreography, not Asada, but those moves were out of place during "Waltz of the Flowers," and believe me, I'm the last person to insist that "Nutcracker" be performed in the traditional style. For example, I thought Ilia Kulik's choreography and skate to "Waltz of the Flowers" was brilliant. And I've done evil things myself to "Nutcracker."

    But Asada's program was at least Balanchinesque, 20th Century "Nutcracker." Although she was Clara for all intents and purposes, she didn't skate for any of Clara's music. So, IMO, I felt Asada at least had to reflect the different qualities of the three cuts chose for her LP. Also, IMO, one doesn't get the sense of magic when the music for "Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy" starts. The third and final section is from the finale, I believe, when the characters of the third act each perform for Clara and the Prince.

    However, the quality and intensity of Mao's skating for each section was the same. The music basically fools the audience into reacting as if Asada really is skating to the music of each section and therefore, she's musical. But Asada had the same energy, attack, and timing for each section. For anybody who's curious, either mute your tape, or if your mute runs "subtitles" of everything the commentators say, even on tape, so you can't see a lot of what the skater does, just turn the sound down. See if you can tell when Asada is doing "Waltz," "Sugarplum," and "Finale," especially when she stops the first, starts and stops the second, and starts the third. In a good skater, you should be able to see the musical changes reflected in her body.

    As Susie Wynne said, "Because of her great jumping ability, she creates an ease for the observer and some of that immaturity in the movement is almost forgiven," a statement with which ITA. However, I also agree with Paul Wylie who noted Asada's great ice coverage and speed.

    I also agree that Mao is charismatic, carefree, and that her edges and speed were superior to Sasha's in this event. Sasha's lack of speed, especially on her spins, which is usually superb, was a puzzlement to me. She's always had to work on her crossover speed and edges in order to get good flow and ice coverage. Her jumps looked more solid, but she either rushed at least one, the 3sal, because she got behind the music, which was probably due to her overall lack of speed as well as sloweness on her spins, or momentarily lost concentration or technique. These are serious problems that Sasha must solve and solve fast if she ever wants to win a World gold medal.

    IMO, Asada has all the tools and she is it if you want to see a very young skater with great speed, ice coverage, phenomenal jumping ability as well as great spins, in other words, all the makings of a great skater. But she's all ingredients right now and no cake. I have no doubt she will become a gorgeous cake as she matures, but Asada's is still only the terrific and charismatic jumping bean and spinner. However, I don't think the judges should be giving her PCS and non-jump levels based on what they expect her to have or not in her jumps and spins.

    I know, the following is a lousy analogy, but I'm pressed for time. Asada is rather like a donut. She's got all the things she needs around the outside, but she doesn't have the variety of communicative ability. emotional, and movement qualities she needs to carry a program. But in a year or so, I have no doubt Mao will become a full-fledged jelly donut. I warned you it was a lousy analogy.

    Actually, Asada reminds me of Sasha when she was 16, but Mao is a much perkier girl and better jump technician than Sasha, much like Naomi Nari Nam was. However, Sasha has each year since the '01/02 season, increased, though with ups and downs, her performances in terms of warmth, power, tenderness, musicality, vulnerability, strength, attack, and the variety of movement qualities necessary to fully convey her "Juliet" both technically and emotionally.

    For me, a skater does not have to and should not "mug" emotional expressions (I hate that) in order to get across feeling. Personally, I love Johnny Weir's skating "unto himself" as Dick Button calls it. Watching someone genuinely and deeply involved in the Zen of his or her skating is very compelling to me. Of course I enjoy the uninhibited playfulness of a Mao Asada. But I enjoy just as much and often more the lively depth of Sasha Cohen; the regal lyricism of Michelle Kwan; the powerful life force of Irina Slutskaya; the quiet power of Shizuka Arakawa, who is a completely different person and skater from what she was just three years ago. I could go on and on--and usually do--but you get the gist.

    Sometimes there's nothing better than watching an energetic, creative child at play. Sometimes there's nothing better than watching a young but fully developed woman give a performance full of the experiences of joys and disappointments as well as love and heartbreak inherant in young love. There's also all the pain and happiness of maturation, and investing those experiences into her skating, Whether she is Sasha, Michelle, Shizza, or Irina, each very different from each other, but each moving the audience in her own way. I'm enjoying Mao Asada for what she is and has to offer right now, but she's not yet a "full performance nine-course dinner" like Irina, Michelle, Sasha, or Shizuka.

    So, I love Asada and can't wait to see her mature. But more so, I love the "veterans," perhaps because I've seen their struggles and disappointments; their hard work leading sometimes to triumphs, sometimes to bitter disappointment in themselves. These young women have been through the gauntlet and IMO it shows in the depth with which they perform, as well as the edification and indescribable soul connection I feel from their best performances, naturally the best ones for me but not necessarily their best known ones.

    Anyway, Frau Mueller, it goes without saying that you are entitled to your opinion and I mine. It's one of the things I love best about GS. One can say exactly what one thinks of a skater, within the GS guidelines natch and by doing so, if I can keep an open mind (I try at least, lol) I can see things in skaters and feel things from them I never thought I could.

    That's all--freakin' finally!

    Rgirl
    Last edited by Rgirl; 11-30-2005 at 07:34 AM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog
    FINALLY, a non "Cohen-was-robbed-boo-hoo" post!!!
    :banging:

    Are you seriously serious? Disagreeing with a judging outcome isn't boo hooing... Just like being contrary for the sake of being contrary isn't always a good thing...

  15. #30
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    Thumbs up Doggygirl Caller

    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    To add to MM's clarification of the technical panel role....

    Maybe this was your intent to mix the roles of the technical panel and the judges in your descriptions of the various elements, because I liked reading your evaluations! But just in case there is a misunderstanding, the technical people have nothing to do with evaluating the quality of an element performed. As an example, a level 3 spiral is called based on meeting the defined criteria - number of postions, edge changes, meeting the time requirement for holding positions, etc. So it is possible to view a great spiral (in terms of how it is performed), a mediocre spiral and a craptacular spiral that are all level three in difficulty. The GOE that the judges assign is where to look on the "quality front" where reward/penalty is to be given for things you mention like speed, deep edges, and all of that.

    If you look at the spirals for Mao, Shiz and Sasha, yes they were all called as level 3. In terms of the "quality" here's how the judges called it (using all 10). Mao received 3 GOE of +1, and 7 GOE of 0. After factoring she got a total score of 3.3 for this element.

    Shiz received 5 +2 GOE and 5 +1 GOE for hers. So after factoring she got a total of 3.9 points for this element.

    Sasha received 10 +2 GOE for her spiral, for a total score on this element of 4.1 points.....
    DG Caller, Rgirl mind mush strikes again. I would say, "How could I forget the GOE?!" But by now we know I could ride the subway naked if I was having a bad "remember clothes?" day.

    Thanks bunches and bunches, Doggygirl Caller. I feel so much better now. And I even studied the Detailed Results. Oh, well. There's a saying that the only way we learn any thing is by making mistakes. Man, I'm on my way to surpassing Einstein.

    Rgirl

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