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Thread: LADIES Free from TV

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rgirl
    But by now we know I could ride the subway naked if I was having a bad "remember clothes?" day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    When that day comes, make sure you let us know!! I bet men will be tossing you millions of shiny fake bead strings!!
    Aw-aw! I just had one too on Thansgiving. Macy's wanted to fill me up with helium, tie me to strings, and put me in the parade after Underdog--naked, natch. I told Macy's if they did that I'd say rude things about Santa Claus a la Nancy Kerrigan.

    But seriously, in NY they don't toss shiny fake beads for you. They dump hot coffee on you--or where you're about to sit.

    Rgirl
    Last edited by Rgirl; 11-30-2005 at 09:51 AM.

  2. #47
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    gold for Sasha

    Quote Originally Posted by gracefulswan
    I have always believed it wasn't the judging previously that was the problem...rather the judges.. but no one wanted to points fingers and ban judges for life... so instead of 'fixing' the problem, they created another one. case in point: sasha's finish at TEB. just a joke. sasha should have been so far ahead of the others in PCS that she ought to have won. exquisite... really was.. she wants it badly this season and i hope she can achieve her dreams.
    I agree with you completely! Of coarse the US thought it was above all that & that the judging problems were only international. Well, they were wrong. The US has really bad & unfair judges just like everybody else. They should have all been thrown out with 6.0.
    Now our skaters seem to be being punished for not competing in the COP before this season. Why did we keep 6.0 longer than anybody else & a year later than announced? To guarantee MK the record.

  3. #48
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    Interesting theory. It's Kwan's fault that Cohen didn't win.

    Joe

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Interesting theory. It's Kwan's fault that Cohen didn't win.

    Joe
    Who said that?

    It's Kwan's fault for anything Come on, she wasn't even THERE.

    Now our skaters seem to be being punished for not competing in the COP before this season. Why did we keep 6.0 longer than anybody else & a year later than announced? To guarantee MK the record.
    Of all the conspiracy theories floating around, I simply cannot buy this one. I'm sure it had more to do with crappy timing on part of the US federation. All I know is that it doesn't do the US skaters any good. No one mentioned to Kwan that she was going to get docked for time violations, even though she did the same thing at Nats. Kwan wasn't able to get any Cop feedback at Nats last year, so when she went to Worlds she was unprepared and seemed rattled by the points. As for Cohen I think she knows the system, but does herself in every time. If she really puts a clean one out there she could be a real contender (of course unless Irina skates clean, too. Then any title is hers automatically).

  5. #50
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    Rgirl,

    Love the cake/jelly donut analogies. Our choir director used a similar one last night - telling the second tenors that they were building a sandwich in that chord and they were the peanut butter and jelly between the two slices of bread. Then he told them to get juicy and delicious! Everyone laughs at these, but when we got back to that section in the run-thru, darned if they didn't sound yummy.

    The Zen-like muscle memory of driving and forgetting you are driving is only one aspect of "feeling" the music. I don't know if I can capture it in words, but as a performer you'll know what I mean. You can practice and rehearse and obsess about a piece of music, but "performance" means you let it go like a little bird and watch it fly. There is that element of going with the flow but also a sense of wonderment and an "AHA, that's what this should sound and feel like." I get that feeling almost everytime we perform. I don't mean the whole concert. Just those AHA moments that send a chill up the spine. A very pleasant tingling feeling that comes with a good performance, even if it's a dreadful dirge, done well, it pleases the soul.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancindiva

    Yes! That is exactly what bugs me about her choreography, but I couldn't figure exactly how to word it. You certainly hit the nail on the head
    The approach of performer first and music second has a long tradition, and it works for some audiences and does not work for others. Since some people in this thread, and the TV commentators are saying Sasha WUZ robbed, and Mao was over marked because Mao is just a jumping bean, and Cohen is so mature in her presentation, that got me thinking about Cohen’s and Mao music choices and their overall approach to presentation.

    Back to the approach or style of performer first and music second: Violinist Ann Sophie Mutter comes to mind, when I listen to her live or recording, my impression has been ASM uses the music as a vehicle to show off her virtuosic skills, and other music lovers agree with this assessment. I fully understand that an artist should have a certain amount of freedom in their interpretation, but at the end we should be able to hear Bach or Vivaldi too. An example is how Mutter butchered Vivaldi’s 4 seasons, romanticizing the piece with tricks that she does so well, and in the process, the essence of 4 seasons (is a baroque piece of music, not some late 19th century German romanticism piece) is toally lost. This approach has been with us for centuries. Rossini one time had to deal with a diva who added so much ornamentation, and tricks to Una voce poco fa from second act of Barber of Sevillie that he didn’t even recognize the piece, and in good humor he thanked the singer for bringing such a fresh / new piece of music to him. Some audiences love their performers for this approach and others don't. Different strokes for different folks. Audience definitely cannot read the performers’ mind, but by listening / watching the performer’s output, and learning the pieces audiences can tell the performers overall approach. IMO, there is an active process of communication in art appreciation. Mutter’s example is an obvious one, but another more subtle example is e.g. how a violinist like Nathan Milstein approached Bach’s sonata and partita for solo violin, most of my friend's assessment of milstein either the EMI 1950s or the DG in 1970s, they hear Bach, Milstein had so much love and respect for the music that he practiced and refined his craft just to present Bach, OTOH, when most of my friends listen to Heiftez’ version of the sonata and partiata they hear Heiftez. IMO some audience prefer to hear Heiftez, and others prefer to hear Bach through Milsten.

    Back to topic on a skater is judged by their ability to interpret the character of the music, or to quote Joesitz “the essence of the music”. Also off topic a bit and a mild dissatisfaction with Lori. I hope next year Lori will choose something that is not as familiar to the public as PIT’s flower waltz. IMO Mao is capable of doing other pieces with more depth. To me, PIT’s music in general, is known for his amazing gift of melody second only to Mozart, plus PIT can do colorful orchestration. To me, there is a superficial pretty quality and not much else to PIT’s music. Nothing wrong with that, audience sucks up pretty melody and tunefulness. Mao skated to flower waltz, and dance of the sugar plum fairy. Since no one can do a 2 hr ballet in 4 mins, it is reasonable to expect Mao to skate to the essence of the music, and what is the essence of flower waltz, it is a waltz, a pretty tuneful piece of music that is danceable. Is flower waltz any different from e.g Kristi’s Blue Danue? Not really, it is a waltz, with a waltz beat, nice tunefulness that is it. PIT’s Flower waltz is not exactly deep complicated stuff like Wagner’s Tristan und Isolde. What is the essence of Dance of the sugar plum fairy? It is a piece of sweet, tuneful music with a danceable beat; it is not exactly psychological deep stuff like Verdi’s Otello. Mao’s joy of skating, charisma, and energy is more than enough to handle flower waltz, and dance of the sugar plum fairy. Wylie compared her to a young Kristi, IMO Mao did almost as good a job as Kristi in her oly 92 sp, the Strauss waltz. The only difference is that Kristi’s piece is tuneful, without a baggage, she did not have to compete with the memory of ballerinas dancing to blue danue. Many people grow up attending nutcracker every Christmas, and the image of Kirkland, and Farrell e.g. stay with them, and like Brennan mentioned in her books (and I paraphrase) that is a huge risk because people may judge the skater against these dancers. ) Fortunately the ISU judges at TEB did not do that. They went to judging school, they studied the rules, and marked Mao’s PCS according to the rules.

    Cohen’s lp music:
    Nino Rota’s sound track to Romeo and Juliet. The particular section of music chosen by Cohen is the orchestration of the ballad “What is a youth”. In the movie, the song was sung as a background for a banquet. It was common practice back in Shakespeare’s time – late 18th century for composers to receive commission to write pieces as background music for special occasions. Telemann got rich by writing hundreds of these so call tafelmusik, table music. Mozart wrote serenades, nocturna, and divertimenti, basically functioned as table music for background . Mozart elevated this genre of background music to some of the highest achievement of Western Art in e.g. Serenade no 10 the gran partite, Haffner serenade (written as background for a wedding) and the posthorn serenade. Rota is no Mozart, so “what is a youth” is just table music, something meant for background, and easy digestion. It suits Cohen well, because IMO music is second to Cohen in her presentation, so it does not matter much if she chooses to be Juliet, or Romeo, or Cleopatra, or queen of Sheba, the music serves as background to her skating. Cohen chose a piece of table music, that is her approach Background music is always second to the primary activity, in the movie “what is a youth” the primary activity is a banquet, and in TEB Cohen. Her fans love it, she received second highest PCS for it, with the flawed jump landings, 2 jumps that were 2 footed and a fall which IMO disrupted the overall presentation of the program. ISU judges do look at how a skater is interpreting the character of the music, so it is implied that the music itself is not secondary to the skater, they are ideally equal partners. Cohen was judged according to rules, no matter how exquisite she came across to her fans. Maybe tafelmusik is a better choice as exhibition music.

    Of course whoever cried WUZ robbed is entitled to his/her opinion, they do not have the responsibility of applying the rules like the judges. I wonder if Kimmie delivered the exact program that Mao skated, and received the exact scores, would Wylie cry WUZ robbed?? I speculate the commentators were shocked that a little 15 y/o beat their national medalists, and it took them a little time to accept that. I think Susie said it so well, "good jumps make her immature movement almost forgiveable". LOL, what was Mao's offense, she beat 2 USA national medalists under the COP rules, no offense there, so nothing for Susie to forgive. IMO Susie et al may need to learn to get over it.
    Last edited by gezando; 11-30-2005 at 06:24 PM.

  7. #52
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    And Mao's skating is not more about herself than the music she's skating too? And don't start calling me a Cohen fan, because I sure as hell am not.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine
    And Mao's skating is not more about herself than the music she's skating too? And don't start calling me a Cohen fan, because I sure as hell am not.
    Shine, duely noted you are a Yukina fan and I love Yukina too. Mao chose flower waltz, and her job is to interpret a waltz, and she did a fine job at that. Like equestrianguy said all skaters bring their own style to the skating. IMO Mao's presentation approach is not Mao first, music second. BTW, I do not get the impression that Yukina has an approach of Ota first, music second either.
    Last edited by gezando; 11-30-2005 at 09:08 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezando
    The approach of performer first and music second has a long tradition,...
    Great post, Gezando. Whether a person agrees or not with your conclusion, you analysis is thought-provoking.

    All in all, I think I do agree with your assessment of Sasha. And I think her fans might agree, too. There is nothing wrong with being Ann-Sophie Mutter -- her style and sense of the music is not to everyone's taste, that's all.

    MM
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-30-2005 at 10:45 PM.

  10. #55
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    MM

    if you are a budding ASM fan, good news for you. DG just issued new cds by ASM and Hahn (both DG artists)

    In celebration of Wolfganus Theophilus Mozart's 250th Bday in Jan 06, here are the new issues

    ASM: Mozart's violin concerto, ASM looks stunning for someone who is older than 40. I have decided to pass the chance of screening/ listening to this one

    http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/...ter,+et+al.htm

    and Hahn & Natalie Zhu: Mozart vioiin sonata
    I have a chance to screen/ listen to this one. Overall, I like it, but I am slightly disappointed that for a team of over 10 yrs, Hahn and Zhu at times do not have great rapport in this recording

    http://www.towerrecords.com/Classica...zart%20sonata&
    Last edited by gezando; 11-30-2005 at 10:30 PM.

  11. #56
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    More generally, on the whether Sasha wuz-robbed, Sasha did receive the highest PCS in both the short and the long programs. So if you think -- as I do -- that Sasha gave a very lovely performance, the judges agreed.

    On the other hand, I don't think that Sasha deserved to be light-years ahead of the competition in PCS. Her many small technical errors -- as pointed out above, she got negative GOEs on five of her seven jumping passes -- really precludes the possibilty of giving her Irina-like numbers in Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance/Execution. And totters, two-foots and falls detract from the choreography and intepretation, too.

    Again, I agree with the judges that Sasha gave the best performance, with respect to program components. BUT...

    Come on, guys. Sasha gave Mao a head start of 11 points on jump elements, 47.5 to 36.5. I don't care how wonderful you are, you are not going to make up 11 points in the PCS (do the math, LOL).

    MM
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-30-2005 at 10:46 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezando
    Shine, duely noted you are a Yukina fan and I love Yukina too. Mao chose flower waltz, and her job is to interpret a waltz, and she did a fine job at that. Like equestrianguy said all skaters bring their own style to the skating. IMO Mao's presentation approach is not Mao first, music second. BTW, I do not get the impression that Yukina has an approach of Ota first, music second either.
    I don't know. I find that cutesy presentation really overwhelms whatever the music is playing in the background... She is an amazing skater technically (not just the jumps either) and has great presentation skills, but IMO her programs are just really babyish and the music is relatively easy to skate to and easy to "get", and her whole approach towards skating just doesn't float my boat. But to each his own. That said, I really look forward to seeing her skate to more mature programs as a grown up with more breadth and depth of emotion.
    On the other hand, I loved Mutter's performance of Beethoven's violin concerto In D..the one which she played along side Karajan.
    Last edited by shine; 11-30-2005 at 10:45 PM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezando
    MM, if you are a budding ASM fan, good news for you. DG just issued new cds by ASM and Hahn (both DG artists)...
    Well, I am already a Hahn fan, thanks to your previous recommendations, so I think I'll give the Hahn offering a try and put off the ASM for now.

  14. #59
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    Cohen and the Music

    I have read different posts on this thread that complain that Sasha is all about Sasha and not the music, as if she is such a self involved person that she could never get the connection of the music to the feeling of the performance and interpretation of the program. I don't think this was ever deliberate on her part. She was too busy getting the technical part down, and unless she was into music to begin with, as an athlete first, she might need some help to make the connection. Michelle had Lori Nichol and Frank help her do that when she was quite young. They worked hard with her on this concept and she "got it" very quickly. I don't think Sasha had that. But clearly she has heard the criticism, and from this performance, she looks like she is "getting it" too. I think she deserves credit for trying to improve in this area.

  15. #60
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    I think she deserves credit, too, Kyla.

    But I don't think people are saying that Sasha is self-centered. I think it is just a different approach to musical interpretation. Like some Italian opera stars of previous centuries used the music to showcase the remarkable virtuosity of their own unique voices. (The composers didn't like it, but hey -- it's the stars that pay the bills, LOL.)

    MM

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