How would our favorite skaters of the past have fared under CoP?

CDMM1991 · Dec 18, 2005

I think certain skaters like Kurt Browning and Todd Eldredge would have done very well, if not better than they did, under CoP. I'm not sure Elvis Stojko would have done that well, and you know that classic Yagudin footwork, is actually extremely simple, and would have probably been a level one.

Who do you think would have done well or not?

Doggygirl · Dec 18, 2005

I think that strong competitors figure out exactly what they need to do to be contenders for the win. I think it's impossible to go back and apply a different judging system to retired skaters, and compare them.

Using an example you gave, Yagudin developed a bit of a "trademark" on footwork, which might have been graded level 1 today, but was being (IMO) largely ignored as an element in Yagudin's time. He got well deserved "WOW" by doing something better than everyone else was in that time.

Given his success at footwork, that's probably an area of strength where under the current rules, he might have figured it out to level 4. But we will never know.

We will also never know how the "stars" of figures way back when would have done had figures been eliminated at a different time. Would the skaters who relied on figures to sail to victory have worked harder on the free skating things had they known? Would they have been successful? We will never know.

It's quite interesting to ponder though!!

DG

Mathman · Dec 18, 2005

Carol Heiss would have totally dominated the sport. If they had had CoP judging back then, she would have won five World Championships and an Olympic gold medal.

Oh, wait... :laugh:

She was the first woman to land a double Axel -- so, translating that to the present, she would be landing quad Axels now. Speedy would have to extend the point scale just to find marks for all the cool stuff she would be doing.

Plus, she was the complete package, using her athletic power to accentuate her poise and grace. (So if the ISU ever gets the CoP straightened around to where it really does reward the complete skater, Carol would win in a walk.)

Plus, look how beautiful she was :love:

http://uki-net.co.uk/skating/graphics/MG-210.jpg

And is :love:

http://www.clevelandskating.com/events/nsw2002/nsw3.jpg

MM

Mathman · Dec 18, 2005

Toller Cranston would have bombed. No one would know what kind of PCSs to give him. (One man's weird is another man's wow.)

What is the base value for a broken-leg spiral?

MM

Doggygirl · Dec 18, 2005

Mathman!!

I already know I need to fix my diet, exercise more, etc. etc. Did you have to rub it in with:

http://www.clevelandskating.com/events/nsw2002/nsw3.jpg

She is truly an inspiration as a woman who is making a living in a sport (area) she's passionate about, and looking so good while doing it.

Geez. My Resolution List just got longer, and Mathman, I'm blamin' it on you.

DG

Enero · Dec 19, 2005

Wasn't Stokjo known for "difficult" footwork during his time? I've always thought that he would maybe do well under COP, since this system seems to be more about the technical than the artistry, which was the mark he always struggled with. He always had the jumps. And I believe (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) he always had good speed on spins (even though I'm not sure about the difficulty) etc.,

hockeyfan228 · Dec 19, 2005

Imagine the transitions scores that Curry, Lynn, Hamill, and many of the great skaters of the pre-triple/quad generation would have received.

rain · Dec 19, 2005

I agree Browning would have done fabulously under COP, but I think so would Stojko. Much like Slutskaya, he was not traditionally "artistic" but he had absolutely solid skating skills in all areas. His spins were fast and his almost eerie sense of balance meant he would have been able to handle the position changes etc. He had great speed, the best flow out of jumps I've ever see, and was able to pull of the quick difficult footwork. One of the things that made him so successful was his consistency.... he and Kwan, I think, are the two most consistent skaters I've ever seen — rarely did either make a big error. Stojko had absolute focus during his programs, and I think could easily have handled the more complex choreography that has come about under COP. Plus, he had those consistent quads.

I think both B/S and S/P would have fared well under COP. Dimitriev and both his partners would have done well, as would G&G I think. Ilia Kulik would have done well. Paul Wylie.

sk8m8 · Dec 19, 2005

I definitely think that both Paul Wylie and Todd Eldridge would have racked up on PCS scores and I think Todd would have had a few more world titles over other comptitors had he not been battling the emerging quad in mens FS.

I beleive that Yuka Sato could have reigned as World Champion for several years if CoP had been in play. \Oppositionally, I think Bonalay could have done some of those incredible combos and added addtional 3rd double jumps to her passes with ease and racked up points too.

Lu Chen, definitely. Her level of pure skating was absoltely breathtaking and she did pretty well on the old ordinal system. I beleive her skating skills and choreography would have helps her out immensely if CoP were in place.

antmanb · Dec 19, 2005

Enero said:
Wasn't Stokjo known for "difficult" footwork during his time? I've always thought that he would maybe do well under COP, since this system seems to be more about the technical than the artistry, which was the mark he always struggled with. He always had the jumps. And I believe (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) he always had good speed on spins (even though I'm not sure about the difficulty) etc.,

I don't think Elvis's footwork was renowned for being diificult. I think he came under lots of criticism for his footwork and then came up with his "veggie chopping" footwork which was similar to the morozov toe stamps but with the blades. I think he had pretty fast centered spins but not particularly great positions, i seem to recall his poisition in the sitspins wheren't that good.

Ant

JOHIO2 · Dec 19, 2005

I'm with Ant. Elvis was constantly criticized for two-footed skating, especially at the beginning of his career. He was not known for great edging.

STL_Blues_fan · Dec 19, 2005

I posted a similar thread a while ago about Todd. I always felt bad for him with regards to being quadless but being so brilliant in other areas. And look at todays skaters who can't even perform a triple axel. I think he would've gotten that Olympic medal (a bronze I am guessing) in 2002 if the CoP would've been used.

Yana

76olympics · Dec 19, 2005

OK-Mathman-picking on Toller! Those are fighting words! John Curry famously remarked in the "Toller" documentary in 1977 that Toller is a classic case of love him or hate him ("his fans won't hear a word against him").

For some reason, Toller's skating gets to me. I love it that he gets his body into positions that are fantastical. In his amateur days, he was very fast , artistic and quite competent technically for his era. That 1975-6 short program is mesmerizing. I could watch it over and over (wait a second, I do watch it all the time as well as the collected works of Toller, thanks to the video sharing site!)

I can't guess how he would fare under COP, but he certainly could wrap his leg halfway around his head in that "arabesque" spin. Maybe, that could count as a semi-Beillman! :rofl:

A camel is ranked as a simple spin these days, but he had a really great position in that spin.

I wonder how John Curry would do? I know Paul Wylie would have been in his element. He had superb footwork . Kurt does too, of course, but he did just fine with 6.0!

thisthingcalledlove · Dec 20, 2005

As much as I love Katarina, I don't think she would've done so well under the COP.

Caryn Kadavy, on the other hand...

Frau Muller · Dec 20, 2005

JANET LYNN - Would have fared much better at the various Worlds that she attended, had the free-skate portions been judged under COP. Imagine the sort of TES scores that Janet would have received -- for skating skills, transitions, choreography, musicality, etc, etc. Even her tach scores would have been the best, as she was one of the few (if only) women doing triple toe loop back then. The Trixi Schubas & ZsuZsa Almassys would have been totally 'blown off' the podium, despite having racked-up initial leads in school figures.

floskate · Dec 20, 2005

Midori Ito would have gotten ENORMOUS TES!! Think of all the transitions she had - footwork to triple flip, split jump to 3sal, spreadeagle to 3l and ina bauer steps to 3t-3t!!!!! Amazing programs!

soogar · Dec 20, 2005

floskate said:
Midori Ito would have gotten ENORMOUS TES!! Think of all the transitions she had - footwork to triple flip, split jump to 3sal, spreadeagle to 3l and ina bauer steps to 3t-3t!!!!! Amazing programs!

And Midori would have gotten huge PCS scores as well b/c of her speed and deep, secure edges. Plus Midori was a great spinner as well. Kristi wouldn't have had a chance.

Tonichelle · Dec 20, 2005

if the 94 olys had been done with the CoP... would Kurt have hit the podium? Yes he bombed in the short, but the CoP allows a great long program to bring a skater back up into medal-dom...

so would he have been better than 5th?

purplecat · Dec 20, 2005

soogar said:
And Midori would have gotten huge PCS scores as well b/c of her speed and deep, secure edges. Plus Midori was a great spinner as well. Kristi wouldn't have had a chance.

Actually, I think Kristi would've done very well under COP. She always had many transistions in her programs, change of edge spins, catchfoot spins and triple triple combos/and or sequences. I think she would've done just fine.

gkelly · Dec 20, 2005

Tonichelle said:
if the 94 olys had been done with the CoP... would Kurt have hit the podium? Yes he bombed in the short, but the CoP allows a great long program to bring a skater back up into medal-dom...

so would he have been better than 5th?

Good question. Of course, impossible to answer without knowing what the rules for program content would have been at the time and how the skaters would have adjusted their strategies accordingly.

The two skaters that he beat in the long program but not overall were Candeloro and Petrenko.

Basically he had two serious mistakes in the short program and so did Petrenko, the axel mistake slightly less serious and Petrenko's lutz would have been counted as a bad double which might lose just as many points as Browning's so-so single axel. So their point totals there might have been close enough to make it easier to overtake him with a better long than under factored placements with being three places apart in the short. However Petrenko also skated well in the long and had a couple of judges put him ahead of Browning there, so it's likely that the scores there would have been very close between those two also, possibly closer than in the short thus keeping Petrenko ahead overall.

Candeloro rotated and landed all his jumps in the short program, which might have given him a pretty sizeable lead over the guys in 9th and 12th place, and his long was not bad either, so although I think Browning and Petrenko would still have beaten him in the long, they might not have been able to make up the point spread. (Same goes for Stojko -- Browning and Petrenko both took some ordinals from him too, so it's possible that they could have beaten him in the long with a different scoring system, but highly unlikely they could have passed him overall.)

How would our favorite skaters of the past have fared under CoP?

CDMM1991

Doggygirl

Mathman

Mathman

Doggygirl

Enero

hockeyfan228

rain

sk8m8

antmanb

JOHIO2

STL_Blues_fan

76olympics

thisthingcalledlove

Frau Muller

floskate

soogar

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

purplecat

gkelly

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