Should there be an Exception for Mao?

Skate Sandee said:

Nope. The exclusivity and invitational nature of GP makes it a wholly INVALID path to determine who, in fact, is the greatest skater in any given year. Open events (like Nationals) where every eligible skater - no invitation required - earns the right to try to make it to Worlds is the only true path of measuring success. Who's to say some amazing skating phenom won't come out of Mexico someday? Why, the GP series would prevent such an occurrence by it's very nature of exclusivity. But Worlds would reveal such a phenom.

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Sandee, I totally agree (as usual... ) however, you must remember not speak in such a logical fashion during an olympic year... save this insightful remark for next year when people aren't suffering from the OGMitis bug...)

I agree that an exception shouldn't be made for Mao because rules and rules and they should apply to everyone or to no one. I don't think it would be unfair to current seniors because to claim to be the best, they have to outskate everyone. It's unfair to all the promising juniors out there who would have trained differently if they knew they are going to the Olys.

Having said this, I don't agree with the rule and I think it serves no purpose. If the the rule is designed to lessen the risk of injuries for junior skaters, why allow them to compete in Worlds and GP events, to which they come with the SAME and FULL arsenals of jumps?

You think Mao trained her triple axel any less this season because she knew she isn't going to the Olympics? Nope, I bet she was at the rink all day doing just that. Furthermore, if Mao's route to Olympic gold lies through another four years, what do you think she's going to say to herself? "I have four more years, so let me try become a better rounded skater so that I can beat everyone with my superior PCS?" Nope. She's going to say to herself, absolutely correctly, "I beat all you seniors with my triple axel, and my PCS were good enough already, so let me try to keep my triple axel at all costs for the next four years." And the pounding will continue, and there won't be any less of it.

Bottom line is, skaters are going to train and learn whatever they perceive as an advantage over the others. And they are going to start doing it as early as they can. Goebel said in an interview once, "it doesn't matter whether you are willing to injure yourself training or not, because someone else IS willing, and they WILL train." This is the way of the sport.

The only way to lessen the risk of injuries is to limit the number of jumps for all senior skaters which will consequently limit the time skaters spend jumping. That will also force skaters to fill up the time of the program with something other than jumps, which will please those who want more well-rounded skaters.

But then again, who's to say that jumps cause most injuries? What about ice dancers who never jump yet there's always a bandaged knee or two in the competition? What about back, knee and hip injuries caused by spins? Are you going to place a limit on the number and kind of spins, too? What about skaters who skate too fast and damage their knees by repetitive strain? Should there be a limit on speed while skating?

And if the reason to keep Mao out is to please the public who don't wish to pay for the privilege of seeing a little girl but would gladly pay to see a more "adult" skater compete, well, then let's not kid outselves with things like "fairness", "medical reasons" or "better-rounded skaters." Because it has nothing to do with either of these, and everything to do with your viewing pleasure. Way to go to find out who the best skater is.

And what are you going to do with completely matured and artistically sophisticated 15-year olds? Like I hear Kwan was at 15? Or Yukina Ota? Do you want to see approved standards for how a skater should look?

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't know how to limit injuries. I don't know what's fair. What I do know is that every single argument in favor of age limits or Mao not going I heard so far makes absolutely no sense to me.

That is, of course, if someone says that making sense is a good thing.

Everyone has basically stated what I could have said on this topic already, but I'll reiterate it all.

THERE SHOULD NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, BE ANY EXCEPTION FOR MAO WHATSOEVER.

It just the way it goes, guys. How unfair would it be to all the other competitors that Japan's great skater gets to go the OLYs but nobody else had a chance? What about Kimmie being about to go to 05 Worlds? Or that South Korean kid being able to compete in the GP events? I see a huge backlash waiting if Mao is indeed given the go-ahead to Turin.

Everyone knows already that she can't go. So my question is this: What is the justification for letting her go to the Olys? Can anyone answer that with a straight face? Imagine trying to tell that to a crowd that's aware of this rule.

Now, personally, for selfish reasons I would want her there because she seems to be the only one that can beat Irina right now. BUT- and this is a big but- rules are rules. The rules say she is too young to go, so she is too young to go. Simple. Nevertheless, I would be upset if they chose to send her there. Not a fair move. Why didn't the JF do something about this earlier? ITA with the posters who are saying the JF should have said something earlier if they were serious about Mao going to the Olys.

The timing is bad- sure- but she's just going to have to deal with it and stick it out until 2010. BTW- it's Mao's choice to learn all those 3As and quads, and if it takes her out before she is ready, too bad I guess. Right now she can win with those, but look how MK and IS were able to compete at the top level before they got injured/sidelined (unlike Lipinski, whose hip took her out after the 1998 Games).

JMHO once again.

Frau Muller said:

Unless the ISU relaxes the age-eligibility rule, the G-P series will remain the only path to determine who, in fact, is the greatest skater in any given year....certainly the only way to determine who is the greatest FEMALE skater in any given season. The ISU should rename Olympics/Euros/Four CCs & Worlds the "Senior Masters Series." Alternate name: "Legends of Figure Skating" (like the veteran-pros series of the mid-1990s).

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The GP a determiner of who the best skaters are? Nonsense. The Grand Prix is an INVITATIONAL series, and the overwhelming majority of the skaters who participate in it are from the 6 host countries. The host countries pick the skaters according to a regimen concocted by the ISU, largely based on World placement and the ISU Ranking list, and except for the hosts with first pick, often have nothing to do with skill or ability, but whatever skaters are left after the cream is gone.

Think of which skaters made it to the GPF (Nakano, Czisny, Sokolova) and which did not (Arakawa, Rochette)---because of the events they were lucky or unlucky enough to be assigned to.

The Grand Prix is Speedy's way of (1) earning prize money for his pet Speed Skaters (2) punishing non-participators (for any reason, including illness and injury) by forcing them down in the ISU Rankings, which are related to true skating ability about as much as PCS scores reflect actual performance.

WORLDS determines who the top skaters are, certainly not the Grand Prix. Skaters from all countries participate in Worlds, and they all compete against one another, not a select group of 10-12 based on host nation picks.

There is nothing wrong with the age rules per se. What is wrong is the Japanese federation trying to push the ISU to arbitrarily suspend the rules for their underage skater.

If the JF wanted the rules changed, they could have proposed it as late as last fall and lobbied to get the change through the ISU Congress. They didn't do that because they probably realized the other federations (especially the Russians) wouldn't go for it.

What should happen now is that the age rules be changed to make them more consistent, so underage skaters cannot compete in any senior events, including the GP. Then we would not have any more whining and complaining two months before an Olympics.

So, let's see...

Without the GP there would be...hardly any skating.

There would be a couple of invitationals...the national championships, and then Worlds.

IMO, there needs to be SOME sort of "regular season" constructed. Maybe the GP is the answer, maybe it isn't. But this is all JMO.

On another note, maybe when the top skaters retire, we'll see a trend of the top competitors going at it in the GP once again. This year, you do have Irina and the top Japanese ladies competing, but no top Americans. (It's an Olympic year, too.) So when Kwan and Cohen retire, we may have a full GP again. Maybe that'll fix things...?

If at the next round of TV negotations, ESPN/ABC say thanks but no thanks to the GP events, that could be the end of the Grand Prix right there, so maybe it might be a good idea to think about alternatives. From what I have seen, attendance at these events (at the host countries) is fair to poor, and with the current revenue package, the prize money has decreased. Skaters seem less and less enthralled with traveling around the world to compete at these events. That may be due to the shrinking prize money, but it may also be due to boredom and the feeling that the events aren't particularly important.

What are they good for? ISU rankings, which as we know are ludicrous anyway. In some cases, skaters go because Speedy threatens them with being excluded from Worlds. There is something wrong with this picture.

I think they could be successful if revamped. But the status quo doesn't seem to be holding through.

chuckm said:

When Speedy talks about “medical” reasons for the age rules, he’s being more than a little disingenuous. Today, with the huge drop in TV revenues once the GP series went to cable, incentives for keeping the young’uns in eligible competition may have lessened a bit (along with the prize money). However, the publicity about Mao NOT going to the Olympics (which, after all, are not on ABC/ESPN) may actually boost viewership of GP events in the future. Certainly Speedy does not want Mao in the Olympics anyway, as (a) she is a threat to a possible Kostner podium placement for Italy and (b) she would likely turn pro and be lost to the GP.

So Speedy can talk about how much he would like to see Mao at Torino, but he knows that he can’t give her an exception without causing all sorts of chaos within the ISU (the Russians would be furious at possibly losing Irina’s gold medal, and the South Koreans would be apoplectic at needlessly having lost a Ladies’ Olympic spot). I believe a General Rule such as the age rule has to be voted on by the ISU Congress to be changed or modified, and right now, the rule does not allow for any exceptions.

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If Cohen beats Slutskaya in the Olympics, we will have seen it; If Shizuka beats Cohen in the Olympics, we will have seen it. If Kostner wins the Oly gold in her home town, we will have seen it.

If any of those skaters does win the Oly, will there be a flood of retorts that so and so won the Olys because Mao was not there? Will the winner of the Olys carry a tag around her for the rest of her life that she won but Mao wasn't there.

The only way to get around this scenario is to the let Mao skate the Olys. Chances are she will not win so fans of favorites really don't have to worry. She may pushed someone off the podium, though.

Joe

I haven't read through the whole thread, but should there be an exception? No. Not this late in the game. It is a shame for Mao that this is the rule right now, but it is.

Huh? I seriously doubt there will be "retorts". Maybe some dissent among fans of certain skaters, but I doubt it will come from the public as a whole. Most people don't know who Mao Asada is but I'm sure NBC will make sure they know by announcing her during the Games. It's a rule, and they'll state it as a rule. If she goes, people may go, huh? Not another teenager again.

In my eyes, there is no TRUE justification for Mao going to the Olympics. Nor is there one for Tanith of the US getting her citizenship in time.

Joesitz said:

If Cohen beats Slutskaya in the Olympics, we will have seen it; If Shizuka beats Cohen in the Olympics, we will have seen it. If Kostner wins the Oly gold in her home town, we will have seen it.

If any of those skaters does win the Oly, will there be a flood of retorts that so and so won the Olys because Mao was not there? Will the winner of the Olys carry a tag around her for the rest of her life that she won but Mao wasn't there.

The only way to get around this scenario is to the let Mao skate the Olys. Chances are she will not win so fans of favorites really don't have to worry. She may pushed someone off the podium, though.

Joe

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Nonsense. Will TT/MM carry a tag that they won the Olympics because Shen/Zhao wasn't there (which may well be the case)?

NOT a good reason for taking an action that could blow up in the ISU's face.

The age rule states only that a skater must be 15 by July 1st of the preceding year to be eligible to skate at the Olympics, Europeans, Four Continents and (senior) Worlds. There is no provision for exceptions, and no process for making an exception.

If the ISU ignores the rule and allows Mao to go to Torino and she wins a medal of any color, any federation whose skater was deprived of a podium placement could appeal to the CAS. The CAS would review the ISU rules and the ISU would lose. Mao would have to return the medal, and the ISU could be sued for damages.

The ISU is not going to do anything that could result in such a debacle.

The only way the rule can be changed is if the ISU calls a special session of the ISU Congress and the majority of the member nations vote in favor of changing the rule. You could expect that to happen the day we hear a skating rink has been installed in Hades.

ITA...:thumbsup:

Red Dog - The stigma stays regardless of who it is. Sarah underrotates her jumps is written all the time. Sasha splats will be written (if she does), Michelle has no 3x3, Irina can't do a classic spiral. there is an ounce of truth in all these stigmas (no more than an ounce). The winner of the 2006 Olympics Ladies Division will be someone who carries the stigma "Mao Wasn't There". Trust me.

In your eyes, Red Dog, do you see any justification for the rule itself? Some of us do not.

Chuckum - I agree it's the rule and Mao doesn't have a chance to be there but the stigma will be there. S&Z are injured. It's not a rule so they are not being prevented from going. Still, many posters on GS will say so and so won but S&Z were not there. That's the way it is in Skateland.

Joe

The general public will accept the 2006 Olympic Ladies Champion with no asterisk or sidebar. Only wrangling posters will bring Mao up, and if Mao's jumps don't survive an attack of the puberty bug, even that grumbling will eventually cease.

Joesitz said:

Red Dog - The stigma stays regardless of who it is. Sarah underrotates her jumps is written all the time. Sasha splats will be written (if she does), Michelle has no 3x3, Irina can't do a classic spiral. there is an ounce of truth in all these stigmas (no more than an ounce). The winner of the 2006 Olympics Ladies Division will be someone who carries the stigma "Mao Wasn't There". Trust me.

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We shall see. It's possible, but if anything, at the worst case scenario there will be some asterisk somewhere beside the winner. OTOH, the worst case scenario for ALLOWING Mao to go to the Olys- basically what chuckm said- potential disaster for the ISU. Now we don't want that, do we? (Or maybe we do. )

In your eyes, Red Dog, do you see any justification for the rule itself? Some of us do not.

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Well, this is Ladies' figure skating after all, isn't it? Not little girls' figure skating. This is the one (and only) "justification" I see for this rule- to try to keep out the youngsters and make the ladies' event truly ladies. The juniors have their own events. Let them grow up and wait to compete with the big boys- I mean girls.

Other than that, though, not really- I would venture to say it might reduce the number of injuries, but with juniors busting out those 3As and 3-3s I'm not so sure any more. So the only real justification: To make senior ladies' skating ladies only. In fact, I would be in favor of an age limit increase- increase the age to 18 for seniors.

The flip side is the little girl wanting to live her Olympic dream, and live it NOW. For a while, as long as they could do it, they were allowed to compete there. But how often have we seen these girls overtrain these huge jumps to be the best in the world, and then have their careers cut off by life-long injury(ies)? Maybe if the age limit were 18, there might not be such a big rush to learn these crazy jumps in order to make the smooth transition over to seniors. But this is all JMO.

chuckm said:

The general public will accept the 2006 Olympic Ladies Champion with no asterisk or sidebar. Only wrangling posters will bring Mao up, and if Mao's jumps don't survive an attack of the puberty bug, even that grumbling will eventually cease.

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I see this happening, too. It's just skating fans that will place that asterisk by the OGM winner's name. Especially if it's Irina I know I will

But Red Dog - You adored little Tara.

Chuckum - You are correct. The American general public will accept the winner no matter who as will the European general public. But somewhere in the minds of knowledgeable skaters and real skate fans,there will be the 'what would it have been if Mao was there?'.

Guys - I understand the rule. I'm just not convinced it is a good rule. I am not a Mao fan. I am not an anti fan of anyone. I just enjoy seeing the best person win. Without Mao, I will be skeptical that the winner didn't compete against the best of Japan. That's me, and like me, there will be thousands of others who put the concept of the best that night to win in their personal results.

Don't worry. If you have a favorite, Mao won't be there to upset the applecart.

Joe

What some people don't realize is that both Tara Lipinski and Oksana Baiul were age-eligible under current rules when they won the OGM. Oksana was born November 16, 1977 and was 16 years and 4 months when she won the OGM. Tara was born June 10, 1982 and was 15 years and 8 months when she won.

They were both underage by current rules when they competed at Worlds the previous year, though.

If Irina wins the gold medal as expected, I don't think anyone will worry too much about what Mao might have done, except people who don't like Irina anyway.

But TripleFlutz has an interesting point. If Mao wins the Japanese National Championship, the Japanese Federation can complain that the arbitrary and unjustified ISU rules prevented them from sending their national champion to represent them in the Olympics.

But that's OK. It wouldn't be the Olympics without a figure skating controversy.

If Speedy is smart he will bribe Mao to throw Japanese Nationals and let everone off the hook.

MM

Frau Muller said:

Yeah, just like no rule could be changed in the middle of an Olympics to allow a second set of gold medals tot he Canadians? Changing the entry rule for Mao would be lame compared with what was done in Salt Lake *after* the competition had been decided using the then-existing rules!!!

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Since the day one I posted here I stated that there should never be a 2nd medal rewarded at SLC....not to mention I felt Elena/Anton deserved their Gold medal at first place.

Like someone above said life isn't always fair. Rule is still rule if they change in the middle of season there will be a lot impact not just Mao. Every angle already being disscussed.