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Thread: Christians are stupid comment at Christmas party

  1. #16
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    As a non-practicer of any particular religion, I've observed that there seems to be harsh feelings between some Christians and some Catholics.

    Christians don't seem to respect the rituals of the Catholic Church - after all, going to mass doesn't mean you're a good person, especially if you turn around and sleep with someone who's not your spouse.

    Catholics consider themselves Christians too and don't understand why some people disinguish themselves as Christians - after all, both religions are about learnin the lessons of God's son Jesus.....

    I say that everyone should learn to respect that the other person may have different beliefs (or non-beliefs), as long as they are not harming society. Practicing religion does not make one better or worse than anyone else.

    If one were to study the history of religions, many are just branches of the same tree.

  2. #17
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antilles
    I must admit I've never really understood the term "born-again" Christian. I've never heard people of other religions who have found faith in adulthood refer to themselves as as born-again. Does it really matter when faith was found?
    Quote Originally Posted by New Europe
    I don't understand the term "born again" Christian either. It doesn't matter when your faith was found, what matters is that you find it.
    I am certainly no expert, but I think the idea goes something like this. In the New Testament, Jesus says (John 3:3), "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," and (John 3:5), "Except a man be born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    Christian theologians have been wrangling over the meaning of these words ever since.

    It is generally accepted that being "born of water" refers to the ritual of baptism, which thus has central place in liturgical practice in almost all Christian denominations. In baptism, so Christians believe, you are "buried" in the waters and the old sinful person that you used to be dies. The new you rises out of the waters, freed from your disobedient past and ready to walk in a new relationship with God. This mirrors Jesus dying on the cross bearing the sins of the world, and his subsequent resurrection to a new life in the Spirit.

    Of course after this transformation takes place you are expected to show it in your subsequent word and deeds.

    There is no particular age at which this miracle is required to take place, but people who call themselves "born again" usually do not believe in infant baptism. That is, you have to be old enough to make a conscious and informed decision. (Babies cannot commit sins because they are too young to form wicked thoughts; therefore they do not need to be cleansed in baptism -- plus, they don't know what they're doing anyway, so it is impossible for them to have a "change of heart" and seek a renewal of the spirit.)

    In contrast, believers in the efficacy of infant baptism usually reason something like this. Every person, simply by being born into the imperfect family of mankind, inherits the "sin of Adam." That is, just by being human you necessarily fall short of the glory of God. So you have to be sanctified in baptism right away, to enter into the protection of the church and the kingdom of God, even as an young child. The devil is after your soul from day one, and he does not give you a grace period.

    Something like that. (?)

    MM

  3. #18
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    Mathman,

    I was going to reply to the questions, but you said it very well. In most evangelical circles the terms "Christian" and "Born again" are interchangeable; in other words, there is no such thing as a Christian who is not 'born again'. The way I was taught was it had less to do with the moment of baptism (that is a visual outward expression of the inward decision/change) & more with the moment of conversion; you are choosing to lay aside your old life and asking God to give you a new, redeemed life which will be lived in obedience to Him. So you are "dying" to the old nature of sin and self, and stepping into a 'new life' of obedience where you do what God would want you to do, not necessarily what you want to do.

    In the Bible the term is being used as a kind of visual aid to help people understand what converting to Christianity means--that it's supposed to be a lifelong commitment to living in obedience to God.

    I don't know where/who came up w/ the term "born again Christian" to mean a certain kind of Christian?

    ETA: I was also raised w/ baptism being an adult's decision to publicly "announce" their decision of faith. Children/infants are not baptized because they have not made any decisions yet about whether or not they will follow the religion's teaching. We call it an "age of accountability" when a child reaches an age that they could understand & make a decision for themselves. Baptism comes after conversion in most protestant denominations.

    Also the thing re. Catholics vs. Christians--I think the right wording would actually be Catholics vs. Protestants. Protestants don't believe in a lot of the Catholic traditions, such as infant baptisms, saints, confession, etc.
    Last edited by backspin; 12-28-2005 at 11:11 AM.

  4. #19
    Ballroom Baby
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    The pre-Vatican II justification for infant baptism was, among others, that if the infant died without being Baptized (and that happened a LOT in the days before modern medicine) then the stain of original sin prevented them from entering heaven. They instead went to Limbo, which isn't heaven, but isn't Purgatory, either (which is basically Hell with an eventual Get out of Jail Free card after you've been sufficiently punished--there is Biblical justification for this, but don't get me started.) However, if they were Baptized and thus cleared of original sin, and then died before they reached the age of reason and could be counted as personally responsible for any sins they'd commited, they went to heaven. With the infant mortality rate as it was, it's understandable. Now it's considered more the washing away of original sin, plus an initial introduction into the Church family, and the granting of responsibility to the godparents. For Catholics, the godparents must be Catholic and are nominally responsible for monitoring the child's spiritual upbringing.

    For Catholics, Baptism's not the induction into full church membership it seems to be for those who go in for adult/immersion Baptism. Catholics have a lot of steps to go through, from first Confession and Communion (around age 7 or so, when children are considered old enough to distinguish wrong from right), and Confirmation, which is usually around age 14 and after which you're fully responsible for your own membership in the Church.

    And yes, Catholics (and the Orthodox, for that matter) are not only Christians but were Christians centuries before any of the other denominations were even thought up, which makes it annoying for some of us when "Christians" are like, "Are you Christian or Catholic?" Did they miss the big Jesus at the front of Catholic churches, and the fact that the Mass is pretty much all about Jesus? If anything, we probably slight the holy spirit part of the Trinity more than the others. Jesus was a Jew, the first Christians formed what became the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and a few sects of gnostics that died out. There were no Protestants for more than a thousand years after Christ. They do not get a monopoly on the word "Christian."

    Sorry. Catholics get it from both sides--secularists who don't like religion in general, and Protestants who think we're idol-worshipping Papists. We can be touchy sometimes. (But you should see us bicker with each other!)

    As far as the OP goes, I would bring it up with her supervisors. That's called "creation of a hostile work environment." It's no different than if she was at a work-sponsored event and people were making derogatory statements about her race or gender. They can be bigots in their own homes, but should know better than to mouth off at work.

  5. #20
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    I think I would have started with how stupid is for non Christians to be celebrating a Christian holiday.
    But isn't "christmas" originally an Roman/pagan tradition that was sort of transformed into a christian tradition because it sutied the ones who ruled Rome. In that case it would be stupid for all of us to celebrate christmas..

  6. #21
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engwaciriel
    But isn't "christmas" originally an Roman/pagan tradition that was sort of transformed into a christian tradition because it sutied the ones who ruled Rome. In that case it would be stupid for all of us to celebrate christmas..
    Pagans rock!

  7. #22
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    I don't think Christmas is a pagan holiday. The concept of the Christmas tree was from a pagan custom.

    http://www.factmonster.com/spot/christmas2.html


    The following is about why December 25
    http://www.factmonster.com/spot/christmas1.html
    Last edited by heyang; 12-28-2005 at 11:35 PM.

  8. #23
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    At my job, a comment like this would have caused another session of "sensitivity training" for the entire firm - people can be repremanded or fired for things of this nature.

  9. #24
    Shoe Diva
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    I would've told them that while I will pray for them, I sincerely believe they are going to hell... because God doesn't like ugly. So there...

  10. #25
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    On the other hand, if we're dishing out awards for stupid and insensitive comments relating to religion, my vote goes to Pat Robertson.

  11. #26
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    Even Christians don't want him..... Many of the Christan 'clergy' are calling for people to distance themselves from Pat Roberts. It think he forgets about the separation of Church and State.

  12. #27
    Sal-Kowabunga!
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    heyang and aloft,

    Quote Originally Posted by heyang
    Even Christians don't want him..... Many of the Christan 'clergy' are calling for people to distance themselves from Pat Roberts.
    Once again, Pat Roberston has put his foot in his mouth. He called Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's stroke "the wrath of God" for Sharon's attempt to bring peace between Israelis and Palestinians by negotiating territory and terms for "dividing" Israel, contrary to what good-old Pat is sure is "the will of God." He even went on to proclaim it a warning for the next Israeli PM.

    Is it too much to ask that at least one major Christian leader call that what it is - right-wing nonsense?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOHIO2
    heyang and aloft,



    Once again, Pat Roberston has put his foot in his mouth. He called Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's stroke "the wrath of God" for Sharon's attempt to bring peace between Israelis and Palestinians by negotiating territory and terms for "dividing" Israel, contrary to what good-old Pat is sure is "the will of God." He even went on to proclaim it a warning for the next Israeli PM.

    Is it too much to ask that at least one major Christian leader call that what it is - right-wing nonsense?


    Pat Robertson is an idiot. Period.

  14. #29
    Figure Skating Is A Dangerous Sport Dee4707's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aloft04
    On the other hand, if we're dishing out awards for stupid and insensitive comments relating to religion, my vote goes to Pat Robertson.
    Amen to that!!!

    On the reverse side there was a gentleman that worked with me and was very anti-Catholic and thought our organization was too Catholic. He didn't want us to say Merry Christmas or even acknowledge the holiday. He went to our boss and said he thought all of the merriment, gift giving and parties were out of line. My boss said........are you working Christmas Day??? The gentleman said ......no. It's a holiday!!???????

    Dee

  15. #30
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    These posts have been interesting to read, and informative.

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