2006 - The Year a Teenager Will Not Win Olympic Gold

~Muffin~ · Dec 31, 2005

Piel said:
Michelle is already an AI...Americon Icon of skating.

Whatever you say, sure she might have an impressive resume but her technique is nothing spectacular. I don't think I am a hater because hate is a strong word, I rather say I am not at all close to being a fan, I think she is overrated, and you can like whatever skaters you like but I don't have to like them. I prefer Sasha to Michelle, and I also like Alissa Czisny and Beatrisa Liang better. But I am not going to go into that right now because this is not a debate thread I am just voicing my opinion. I know where I stand on every subject and I am secure with myself so this is not me being childish (I know no one said I was childish) but it is legal not to be a Michelle Kwan fan. It's just like when I adore the band Franz Ferdinand and my sister puts tripe like the Black Eyed Peas above them. Yeah well enough of that!

Go Sasha Cohen!
Go Irina Slutskaya!
Go Miki Ando!
Go Joannie Rochette!
Go Carolina Kostner!

R.D. · Dec 31, 2005

It's ok to not like Kwan. Some people may tell you otherwise, but it's OK. I'm not a fan of hers either.

However, I do think you make some comments that I take to be somewhat mean-spirited. Maybe you're not a Kwan Hater in the sense of the word, but it screams loud and clear that you strongly dislike her.

This forum is largely pro-Kwan, and anything non-positive could be taken as a slight towards her. Just keep that in mind. I've said far less "hateful" (in fact rather neutral) comments than you have, yet at times I get the same "treatment" from Kwan's fans. It's just the way it goes, that's all.

mzheng · Dec 31, 2005

Red Dog said:
For "obscure" sporting events, the Olympics is the only stage that they can be "showcased". You have lots of viewers that watch the Olys that wouldn't watch these events any other time. Those are reserved for skating fans. So, any feat is an accomplishment, but the average Olympic viewer will only have seen her during the Olympics. And she's done respectably well, but the performance(s) of her life were in other events.

That's true.

But on other side, except the figure skating fans, who else in those average Olympoic viewers remember whom, whom, and whom won OGM? How many will they be remembered? Or rather even how many of those OGMs are remembered by even figure skating fans? Unless they stay in pro or some bussiness related/gave back to FS after their retirment. Or they have some body work archived in some web site for fans come late to dig it up. (My daughter, who recently digs up some old figure skating clips of all those skaters whose competetion years far beyonds her age. Only then she knows who is who, who wins what. She is truely impressed with some programs skated by a few OGMs their winning days were even before she was born.). They are mostly forgoten even by some figure skating fans after 10 or 20 years. The most memorized or recognized ones would be those, whose skating and works most likely be used as examplify and talked about by future coaches and skaters who teaches their students and chase the same dreams. The peer's opinions are the most counted ones......fans and general public views/opinions are important only in the sense of marketing....it's peer's opinions which send you into the Hall of Fame.

R.D. · Dec 31, 2005

I happen to agree with you. Make your mark on skating and you'll be remembered. Longevity wins over being a "flash in the pan".

That's why I think skaters like Slutskaya, Kwan, and Cohen who stuck around a while will be remembered over skaters like Hughes and Lipinski, who were around for a couple of years, won the OGM, got their 15 minutes of fame, and then made off. (Although I WILL give Sarah some credit for coming back in the 03 season, although she finished with a whimper rather than a bang.)

P.S. IF Hughes did NOT win the OGM- I would definitely think she'd still be skating today. One thing is rather predictable- the OGM winner is GONE after this year (or next year). Not from skating necessarily, but from the eligible senior circuit.

SkateFan4Life · Dec 31, 2005

Red Dog said:
I happen to agree with you. Make your mark on skating and you'll be remembered. Longevity wins over being a "flash in the pan".

That's why I think skaters like Slutskaya, Kwan, and Cohen who stuck around a while will be remembered over skaters like Hughes and Lipinski, who were around for a couple of years, won the OGM, got their 15 minutes of fame, and then made off. (Although I WILL give Sarah some credit for coming back in the 03 season, although she finished with a whimper rather than a bang.)

I have the highest respect for skaters who stick around for the long haul. Irina, Michelle, Sasha, etc., have proved themselves to be true "Ice Warriors" with their many years of training and competitions.

However, I think that the average man or woman on the street, who doesn't happen to be a figure skating fan, may not necessarily know who Michelle Kwan is (hard as that is to believe!) but he/she may know who Tara and Sarah are, just because they won gold at the Olympics. Folks who would not otherwise follow a figure skating competition might do so during the Olympics, so that would be the one competition they follow in detail.

R.D. · Dec 31, 2005

And overall, I agree. I should have clarified this in the post but I was referring to being remembered in SKATING circles. As for the general public, the memories are going to be fairly short-lived (and heavily Olympic-oriented). People I bet remember Hughes' performance now (or maybe that SOMEONE performed really well, but can't quite remember the name), but will they still remember it in 10 years? 20 years?

slutskayafan21 · Dec 31, 2005

Hughes atleast took a few years to work up to the top, moreso than Lipinski who started winning almost right away. I dont really like either of those skaters do. One pushed herself to contort her body to do those triple/triples, since the rest of her skating was not good enough to even fathom winning otherwise, and at 17 had major hip surgery.

Hughes seemed to have a good attitude, and worked hard to reach to gradualy work her way to the top, I dont think she is given enough credit for her perseverance in slowly working her way up the ladder. However those rounded shoulders, those flutzes, those underrotated jumps, she just wasnt my cup of tea. I do admit she skated extremely well to win in Salt Lake City, and I dont think she is given enough credit for either her overall gradual rise to the top spread over 3 years, or the value of her win at that Olympic Games. Sure others made mistakes, but Kwan and Slutskaya have won events before with the kind of performances they had in SLC, if Sarah did not skate the performance of her life, one of them still would have. People also pointing out Cohen's fall I find hilarious, since that is as close to a clean long program as you ever see Cohen do, one fall on the hardest triple/triple, about a personal best for her and she still didnt medal. I was dissapointed how Hughes let herself turn 200 pounds, then retire, unlike Lipinski I did not get the impression she had a maniacal drive about winning as soon as possable at all costs, and I expected she would have continued her career after the surpirse Olympic Gold but she didnt.

SkateFan4Life · Dec 31, 2005

Well, the general public certainly recognizes Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill because they both won Olympic gold medals and had stellar professional skating careers. However, the "GP" may not remember Tara and/or Sarah a decade from now, as you pointed out.

Jasper · Dec 31, 2005

SkateFan4Life said:
I have the highest respect for skaters who stick around for the long haul. Irina, Michelle, Sasha, etc., have proved themselves to be true "Ice Warriors" with their many years of training and competitions.

However, I think that the average man or woman on the street, who doesn't happen to be a figure skating fan, may not necessarily know who Michelle Kwan is (hard as that is to believe!) but he/she may know who Tara and Sarah are, just because they won gold at the Olympics. Folks who would not otherwise follow a figure skating competition might do so during the Olympics, so that would be the one competition they follow in detail.

Michelle Kwan is definitely more well-known to the genera; American public than Sarah Hughes! I bet more people know her name than Tara Lipinski's, as well. Despite her lack of Olympic Gold, she's had such longevity in the sport and has competed in 2 Winter Games, so more publicity for her than the other two women in the past decade. More ads, more talk, more everything.

JonnyCoop · Dec 31, 2005

Perhaps Cohen MIGHT have medalled in SLC had she not been so intent on landing all her jumps that she left every shred of her CHOREOGRAPHY out of her program.....:sheesh:

SkateFan4Life · Dec 31, 2005

JonnyCoop said:
Perhaps Cohen MIGHT have medalled in SLC had she not been so intent on landing all her jumps that she left every shred of her CHOREOGRAPHY out of her program.....:sheesh:

Hmmm, I disagree with you on that point. I thought Sasha's "Carmen" program from the 2002 Olympics was excellent, except for her fall on her planned 3/2 combination. IMHO, had Sasha landed that combination, she might have knocked Michelle off the podium. But perhaps not, with the placements, etc.

Mathman · Dec 31, 2005

SkateFan4Life said:
However, I think that the average man or woman on the street, who doesn't happen to be a figure skating fan, may not necessarily know who Michelle Kwan is (hard as that is to believe!)

The average person on the street thinks that Michelle did win the Olympics.

Asked to name the last two Olympic gold medalists, the most common response in a recent poll was "Michelle Kwan and Kristi Yamaguchi."

MM

slutskayafan21 · Dec 31, 2005

JonnyCoop said:
Perhaps Cohen MIGHT have medalled in SLC had she not been so intent on landing all her jumps that she left every shred of her CHOREOGRAPHY out of her program.....:sheesh:

Irina and Michelle had a big stature advantage, and one had to knock either of those two off the podium IMHO. It could be argued she skated better than one or both of them, since both had multiple mistakes, were tenative, and landed fewer clean triples than she did, and it is not as if Sasha is just some jumping bean with nothing but jumps. Still I agree with you to some extent, she had too much basic stroking through some sections, and not enough intricate steps and choreographic detail. It was mostly jumps, some great spins and spirals, and alot of stroking.

slutskayafan21 · Dec 31, 2005

SkateFan4Life said:
Hmmm, I disagree with you on that point. I thought Sasha's "Carmen" program from the 2002 Olympics was excellent, except for her fall on her planned 3/2 combination. IMHO, had Sasha landed that combination, she might have knocked Michelle off the podium. But perhaps not, with the placements, etc.

If Sasha had landed that combination she would have won for sure IMHO. As I mentioned I believe another skater had to knock off Michelle or Irina at those Olympics, so with one mistake and Hughes skating perfectly she was off the podium, even with Michelle and Irina having subpar performances. Still there is no way with Sasha landing a hard 3/3 and skating clean they were going to put her below Hughes. That jump was the difference between 1st and 4th for her. Still she has never done a clean long program at anything bigger than a cheesefest, to do a clean skate with a triple lutz/triple toe would have been a major coup for her, and she wasnt even close to landing the triple toe on the end.

Enero · Dec 31, 2005

Polls can be subjective.

I think Michelle will be remembered 20 years from now in the skating community. The GP is another story. If she wins Olympic Gold in spectacular fashion at this Olympics, she'll be the next Peggy Fleming or Dorothy Hamill to the GP, if she doesn't, she always be remember by fs lovers, but will barely be a blip on the radar to the GP. JMHO.

Doggygirl · Dec 31, 2005

Enero said:
Polls can be subjective.

I think Michelle will be remembered 20 years from now in the skating community. The GP is another story. If she wins Olympic Gold in spectacular fashion at this Olympics, she'll be the next Peggy Fleming or Dorothy Hamill to the GP, if she doesn't, she always be remember by fs lovers, but will barely be a blip on the radar to the GP. JMHO.

ITA that Michell will be remembered years from now in the skating community - regardless of what happens at the Oly's. And if she can win it (and I hope she's in good physical shape to contend) that IMO she will be bigger than Peggy or Dorothy ever have been. And that's big I think. If she can never lace up her skates again, I still think she will be at least as big as Peggy/Dorothy.

I just hope to see her skate "full out" at Nats. But I'm selfish that way.

(first timer at Nats and all that!)

DG

julietvalcouer · Jan 1, 2006

Muffin: you may not be a 'hater' but your behavior looks like trolling. Basically, you're taking every chance you see to take mean-spirited swipes at Michelle Kwan. Saying you don't like her technique is one thing, especially if you back it up. Basically saying "Michelle sux, she's going to lose" at every oportunity, in long-winded small-print posts, is trolling. And I probably shouldn't even be feeding the troll.

I would disagree that no gold = the public in general will forget Michelle. Honestly, right now, without a gold, she's probably the only skater most 'person the street' types could name. She's famous because she's stuck around, because she has a gracious personality that the media like, and because she's had the dubious good fortune to be the favorite who lost to flashes-in-the-pans in a way that got the media's attentions. I don't think, unless she utterly, completely implodes AND publically loses her cool, she's going to drop off the radar. She's good press for skating. Sometimes, people don't care whether or not an athelete has the big prize, because they know him/her and like him/her.

millie · Jan 1, 2006

Quote "those flashes in the pan" skaters came away with an Olympic Gold medal, in which they all deserved to win and nobody can take it away from them. Some skaters are still striving for that OGM and will probably stick around until either some gives them one or they works to get it. All the OGM skaters will always remembered no matter what.

Enero · Jan 1, 2006

julietvalcouer said:
I would disagree that no gold = the public in general will forget Michelle. Honestly, right now, without a gold, she's probably the only skater most 'person the street' types could name. She's famous because she's stuck around, because she has a gracious personality that the media like...I don't think, unless she utterly, completely implodes AND publically loses her cool, she's going to drop off the radar...

And for this reason she will disappear in 20 years, at least from the GP's memory. I would say Kerrigan and Harding would most likely be remembered 20 years from now by the GP over Kwan, just because of the "whack." The GP tends to remember bad behavior more than "graciousness." That still doesn't take away from Kwan though. She's a legend. She'll always be remembered in the skating community, which I think is more important than being remembered by the GP.

attyfan · Jan 1, 2006

millie said:
All the OGM skaters will always remembered no matter what.

By whom? The American general public has probably long forgotten Tenley,
Carol, and all non-US OGMs except Sonia Henie, Kat Witt, and (possibly) Oksana Baiul. Essentially, they divide skaters into "those we have heard of" and "those we have not", and, any skater they have heard of (except Tonya Harding) is assumed to be an OGM. Debi Thomas, for example, repeatedly stated how people she has recently met will congratulate her on her OGM -- even though she didn't win one, and, many people think Michelle also has an OGM.

2006 - The Year a Teenager Will Not Win Olympic Gold

~Muffin~

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