Question about Ice Dance - the Italians and Lithuanians?

I wish to clarify something:

By saying that it could be perceived that a shadow was rather cast on French results of the 90s, I do not mean to be saying that any of the French results were necessarily undeserved. And at no point did I say that they were. My basic point was that I have a theory that due to the SLC thing, judges may be a little afraid to give French dance couples gold or silver medals at major competitions.

slutskayafan -- I have to say, I am extremely impressed by your specific rundown; you know your stuff. However, I do have to take a bit of an exception with Bonaly -- Surya really knew how to JUMP. She did not know how to SKATE. No way on earth should somebody with that basic "lack of technique" (to put it mildly) be winning 5 European titles. Yes, the competition at that time was pretty weak, but still. And even here I'm not saying that the French federation was at work, but if you're going to mark for technique, style, etc, like you're supposed to, in most years her marks should have been CONSIDERABLY lower. I will allow that she did have a certain quality that made her fascinating to watch (and if she ever LEARNED TO SKATE, I truly believe she would have been one of the sport's legends), but that should only take you so far.

slutskayafan21 said:

I think they will be in tough. Right now Navka/Kostmarov, Belbin/
Agosto, Grushina/Goncharov, Dubrueil/Lauzon, and Chait/Shaknovsky, look like the serious podium challengers. Denkova/Stayvinski could be contenders if they get their programs together by Turin, but they have a long ways to go in only a few months based on their NHK performances. Delobel/Schoenfelder peak later in the year, but even last year when many believed they had the best free dance performances in the World, they were ROBBED ROBBED ROBBED by the judges at both Europeans and Worlds, so it is hard to see them ever doing enough to make the judges take them seriously.

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. IMO, Delobel/Schoenfelder have had a couple of really great and entertaining FD's the past two seasons. They should get more recognition from the judges.

JonnyCoop said:

I wish to clarify something:

By saying that it could be perceived that a shadow was rather cast on French results of the 90s, I do not mean to be saying that any of the French results were necessarily undeserved. And at no point did I say that they were. My basic point was that I have a theory that due to the SLC thing, judges may be a little afraid to give French dance couples gold or silver medals at major competitions.

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Sorry I did not mean to imply that you were somehow claiming French made deals to inflate their results on a frequent basis in the last decade prior to SLC. Just that it is a shame that a country that has very rarely benefited, atleast from my perspective, from political favors, is one that has their skaters carefully evaluated due to shadows from a couple of poorly executed, and in retrospect little benefitted, deals orchestrated by the clown of French skating, Didier.

slutskayafan -- I have to say, I am extremely impressed by your specific rundown; you know your stuff. However, I do have to take a bit of an exception with Bonaly -- Surya really knew how to JUMP. She did not know how to SKATE. No way on earth should somebody with that basic "lack of technique" (to put it mildly) be winning 5 European titles. Yes, the competition at that time was pretty weak, but still. And even here I'm not saying that the French federation was at work, but if you're going to mark for technique, style, etc, like you're supposed to, in most years her marks should have been CONSIDERABLY lower. I will allow that she did have a certain quality that made her fascinating to watch (and if she ever LEARNED TO SKATE, I truly believe she would have been one of the sport's legends), but that should only take you so far.

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Thank you very much, and as far as Bonaly, I definitely see your point of view. I certainly find skaters like Lu Chen and Yuka Sato, who she won atleast half of her meetings with(although Lu won the more important decisions, like for the bronze at the Olympics which Bonaly gave away with a few major mistakes, and the gold at the 95 Worlds where both performed strong free programs). However what I meant is from the standards of what is valued in the judging, and the level of important jumps were given in the judging at that time, her placings were not undeserved, and certainly not politicaly-motivated IMO. Jumps of course are probably given too much value to the final results, especialy under the old system. She so far outjumped the skaters who finished below her at the 2003, 2004, and 2005 Worlds; and Biaul at the 2003 and 2004 Europeans; that given the importance of jumps in the judging system at the time her wins I did not consider controversial given the judging standards. I do believe the judging standards should have less emphasis on just jumps, it was not all jumps by any means, and there should be alot of importance on jumps, but still it was far too big a proportion, I would have liked, and even today would like, judging to be more well-rounded. I would also agree, the other good things Bonaly does, are still not centred around any sound basic fundamentals. That is something that should be more a must in skating judging then it is.

I will add though the fact she thought her losing the 94 Worlds was a ripoff towards her was ludricious. Sato actually landed 6 triples in the final free program, Bonaly did not have her best jumping day, alot like the 94 Olympic free skate, and landed only 5 triples with 1 triple/triple(I am giving her no credit for the second jump of a triple flip/2.4 rotated toe with a huge huge cheat; but who knows what the judges did on this element). They were almost the same in jump content, and the quality of Sato's jumps were actually quite high, and close to Bonaly's. Sato's spins were better, I would say her footwork was far far better except Bonaly had so little of it I dont know if you can even refer to Bonaly as doing footwork, as for basic skating-I am not sure if you could take two skaters farther apart on the scale from best to worst as these two, you have the pinnacle of all women in basic skating vs the anthesis of it, and musical interpretation and choreography squarely were in Sato's corner too. Even under the heavy jump-oriented judging standards of the time this result was a no brainer, I was appaled it was even a 5-4 split only for Sato, what on earth were they thinking here. :disapp: Thank goodness the right women won.

Jasper said:

. Commentators point out that their skating is not always as polished, but the differences seem rather small to me and the lifts/moves they perform almost always are more unique and difficult than those of N/K...

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That's just one of many cliches of Susie or Tracey which other comes first. What is meant by polish? Isn't that a subjective term? I have never seen or heard from these ladies any genuine opinions except to agree with the judges I think the ladies are coached by ABC not to play games with this discipline.

Joe

IF the Italians and the Lithuanians are going to be any kind of contenders in Torino, they're going to have to give the skating world something more to go on and to work off of. D/V haven't done anything since Nebelhorn and O. Nepala, and if they're going to make any head way, they need a better set of programmes, IMHO (their OD is fairly basic, and their "Phantom" FD is frantic and annoying at best; this is coming from a huge D/V fan). I haven't seen FP/M at all this season. Neither of these two have been on the GP circuit, so the only way we're going to be able to compare them is at Euros w/ N/K, G/G, D/S, C/S, which I have a feeling is going to be a non-event hwell:

It's nice that they're back, though!!

I am ignorant of the technical aspect of ice dance so I can't comment on that but I think the concept of Del/Sho's freedance is very clever and to borrow a phrase from one of the commentators "very Olympic". It is really the only FD I've seen this season that stands out. The other teams just seem to be a slightly embelished compulsary.

JonnyCoop said:

Thank you for bringing this up! What frequently seems to get overlooked in this "controversy" is the fact that the Free Dance alone does not determine the overall finish, and there are compulsuries and the OD to factor in as well. That being said -- I, too, feel that D/V were undermarked in the Free Dance -- they skated before both F-P/M and B/K and I thought man, those marks seem really low; however I also feel, that at least in the case of B/K, in order to place them behind D/V, they would have had to have gotten marks lower than they would have deserved in spite of the error, assuming they would have even considered doing so. And as Joe mentioned, who knows if they were undermarked in the other phases as well? Seems to me with their technique, especially alongside that of F-P/M, they should have been a bit higher in at least the compulsury round. F-P/M is another issue entirely as I still feel to this day that that Free Dance they had the nerve to show up there with was one of the biggest pieces of cheesy crap I'd ever seen. Had they not been the reigning World champions, I think they would have dropped about 5 places in the World rankings instead of just 2.

I would also like to add that I feel that D/V also got a raw deal at the 2001 Worlds. I feel they should have been the bronze medallists there as well, or at least 3rd in the free. (Tho I will say, having seen Lobacheva & Averbukh's bronze-winning free on TV a couple of weeks later, having been at this event in person, that L/A actually had a much better free than I gave them credit for). However, the controversy in the building at the time was that Bourne & Kraatz should have been the bronze medallists, (there was even talk of having some type of "fan protest" of the judging), and much as I loved Shae-Lynn & Vic, I just couldn't agree with that.

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I don't think D&V got a raw deal at worlds in 2001. L&A skated very well. I don't think B&K were strong enough that year to win the bronze ahead of L&A. I too saw that event live; they were pretty rusty, coming off a year of absence. The fan protest you mentioned had to be due to the fact that the worlds were in Vancouver that year. Some fans actually walked out of the arena before the medal ceremony for the Italians who skated very well that year. I thought that was very rude. FP&M had a poor choice of music for their Olympic FD and with M's fall they were lucky to win the bronze. I don't expect them to be strong enough to be on the podium in Torino. I like D&V but I don't see them beating the likes of N&K, B&A, G&G, D&L, and the much improved C&S.

Vash