Bilemann position

I was wondering how a person gets into the Bielmann position? Specifically, how do you get into a doughnut position to start with? Also, is it possible to do a back spin, grab the foot with opposite arm to opposite leg and go straight into Bielmann that way? I have been trying that way and have found it so difficult to grab the skate at the very start AND maintain my balance. Any other tchniques or tips? I know you can grap same arm, same leg from a layback.

First of all do lots and lots and LOTS of off-ice stretching and once you can get into that position I'd recommend trying it off-ice too. I don't know how to get into a donut spin position but I'd imagine it's pretty tough (I can do a Beillmann position alright, no way could I do a donut!). I'm guessing from a camel you grab your skate blade and pull your leg into that position...