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Thread: Mens FS

  1. #46
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    For each segment, I'm listing total spin base value, followed by total spin GOE, followed by total spins TES.

    SP:
    Lambiel: 7.4 + 1.86 = 9.26 (3 L3 spins)
    Plush: 7.9 + 1.36 = 9.26 (2 L3 + 1 L4 spins)

    FS:
    Lambiel: 9+1.79 = 10.79 (2 L1 + 2 L3 spins)
    Plush: 11.6 + .92 = 12.54 (2 L3 + 2 L4 spins)

    Lambiel is gett rewarded more in GOE (total of 1.37 more factored GOE than Plush across both programs) but Plush has a 3.1 point base value advantage. That's quite a vew base points to leave on the table for someone who is good at spinning. I can't believe he's doing 2 L1 spins in his FS. I can easily imagine a scenario where 3.1 points could make a difference in the color of a medal, or a medal at all at the Oly's. (maybe not between Lambiel and Plush, but between Lambiel and somebody) DG
    Thanks DG for the rundown. Can anyone tell me what spins Plush does that may not get the GoEs of Stephane, but do get the higher technical scores? What spins exactly does he do that are so magnificent? I think if I were a judge and wanted to hold Plush up, I would go for everything else but the spins. JMO

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    For each segment, I'm listing total spin base value, followed by total spin GOE, followed by total spins TES.

    SP:
    Lambiel: 7.4 + 1.86 = 9.26 (3 L3 spins)
    Plush: 7.9 + 1.36 = 9.26 (2 L3 + 1 L4 spins)

    FS:
    Lambiel: 9+1.79 = 10.79 (2 L1 + 2 L3 spins)
    Plush: 11.6 + .92 = 12.54 (2 L3 + 2 L4 spins)

    Lambiel is gett rewarded more in GOE (total of 1.37 more factored GOE than Plush across both programs) but Plush has a 3.1 point base value advantage. That's quite a vew base points to leave on the table for someone who is good at spinning. I can't believe he's doing 2 L1 spins in his FS. I can easily imagine a scenario where 3.1 points could make a difference in the color of a medal, or a medal at all at the Oly's. (maybe not between Lambiel and Plush, but between Lambiel and somebody)

    DG
    Thank you, but those scores only show how disgraceful the judges are at scoring spions. Lambiels GOE on spins are barely better than Plushenko's but they should be MUCH MUCH better, but the judges are idiots and score them almost the same as GOE. However the main thing is Plushenko is out of reach anyway so it doesnt matter so much. It is more ridiculous that others like Joubert and Lysacek are getting almost the same GOE on spins. If the judges were fair Lambiel would get much much higher GOE for his spins than Plushenko, Joubert, and Lysacek but the judges are have biases to skaters from the larger countries and scores accordinginly.

    If Lambiel and Buttle were from Russia, France, or the U.S they would probably get all +2 and +3 on GOE for their spins, and Plushenko, Lysacek, and Joubert from Switzerland, Netherlands, or Bulgaria would get 0 on GOE or some -1.

    It is also ridiculous that GOE scores for spins are factored into a much smaller total. If judges scored GOE for spins right, and the GOE scores were not reduced then skaters with higher quality spins would actualy be rewarded as opposed to the bogus scoring for spins right now.
    Last edited by slutskayafan21; 01-23-2006 at 06:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    The improvement in Jouberts spins is phenomenal...loko at his spins in his Matrix LP and the ones in this seasons LP and the change is huge - the speed the centre, the positions...he actually hits full sit and changes edge while remaining centred. The change is clear to see, he still isn't as fast in the rotations or as fluid in the change in positions as lambiel but an imporvement it is.

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    thanks for that doggygirl - you are right that Lambiel is leaving quite a few base marks unused and that does account for some of the wild differences in the scores but I don't think it counts for all of them.

    When I was watching the free Chris commented that what let Lambiel down in the short was his triple axel and this was the reason he was so far behind Plushenko going into the free. Now I haven't seen this seasons SP's for either skater so I may well be completely off the mark here and some-one please correct me if I am wrong, but when I looked at the marks for both SP's Lambiel received a 1pt deduction, which I am assuming was for whatever mistake he made in his axel, but even taking this into account there was almost a 5pt difference in the scores for the two skaters IIRC, and I am sort of at a loss to understand how, unless of course Plushenko is putting in a 4-3-3/2 combo that Lambiel is not doing. And now that according to your details, they seem to have the same marks for spins in the SP I am more at a loss. Watching the two skaters, they have very different styles but are equally good at the basic stuff like footwork, edges, transitions, interpretation etc so I find the differences in the marks in areas such as this hard to understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diver chick
    thanks for that doggygirl - you are right that Lambiel is leaving quite a few base marks unused and that does account for some of the wild differences in the scores but I don't think it counts for all of them.

    When I was watching the free Chris commented that what let Lambiel down in the short was his triple axel and this was the reason he was so far behind Plushenko going into the free. Now I haven't seen this seasons SP's for either skater so I may well be completely off the mark here and some-one please correct me if I am wrong, but when I looked at the marks for both SP's Lambiel received a 1pt deduction, which I am assuming was for whatever mistake he made in his axel, but even taking this into account there was almost a 5pt difference in the scores for the two skaters IIRC, and I am sort of at a loss to understand how, unless of course Plushenko is putting in a 4-3-3/2 combo that Lambiel is not doing. And now that according to your details, they seem to have the same marks for spins in the SP I am more at a loss. Watching the two skaters, they have very different styles but are equally good at the basic stuff like footwork, edges, transitions, interpretation etc so I find the differences in the marks in areas such as this hard to understand.
    Plushenko's best score for a short program is an 87. Lambiel's is an 80. There would be a huge difference even if both skated cleanly. Plushenko gets much higher PCS scores than any of his competitors. Those that agree with them justify by them with his command of the ice, great basic skating skills, power, great performance qualities. His jumps also get very high GOE scores, higher than any of his competitors there as well.

  6. #51
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diver chick
    thanks for that doggygirl - you are right that Lambiel is leaving quite a few base marks unused and that does account for some of the wild differences in the scores but I don't think it counts for all of them.

    When I was watching the free Chris commented that what let Lambiel down in the short was his triple axel and this was the reason he was so far behind Plushenko going into the free. Now I haven't seen this seasons SP's for either skater so I may well be completely off the mark here and some-one please correct me if I am wrong, but when I looked at the marks for both SP's Lambiel received a 1pt deduction, which I am assuming was for whatever mistake he made in his axel, but even taking this into account there was almost a 5pt difference in the scores for the two skaters IIRC, and I am sort of at a loss to understand how, unless of course Plushenko is putting in a 4-3-3/2 combo that Lambiel is not doing. And now that according to your details, they seem to have the same marks for spins in the SP I am more at a loss. Watching the two skaters, they have very different styles but are equally good at the basic stuff like footwork, edges, transitions, interpretation etc so I find the differences in the marks in areas such as this hard to understand.
    While Plushes and Lambiel's spin scores were the same for the SP (advantage Plush on base, advantage Lambiel on execution/GOE) there were over 3 points difference in base on the FS. Jumps are still the largest portion of TES, and my own opinion is "that's OK." That doesn't mean anyone else's opionion needs to be there. Lambiel seems to have problems with the 3A, and to be a Gold Contender, I think that's a big problem. The spin stuff that I pointed out falls (to me) in the realm of "how do I eek out some points against my competitor?" The issue of jumps as it relates to the TES is a bigger deal, and was outside of the spin analysis I provided.

    DG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    The spin stuff that I pointed out falls (to me) in the realm of "how do I eek out some points against my competitor?" DG
    It should be so much more than that though. Spins and footwork are now more meaningless than they were under the old system.

  8. #53
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    DG - Thanks for the run out of the scoring. Yes, Plush's spins are better than Lambiel's according to these scores.

    I think what the posters are asking: What is it about Plush's spins that they deserve higher levels than Lambiel? His sitsspin alone should be -3. He can't go all the way down. That's just one example.

    Joe

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    DG - Thanks for the run out of the scoring. Yes, Plush's spins are better than Lambiel's according to these scores.
    I think what the posters are asking: What is it about Plush's spins that they deserve higher levels than Lambiel? His sitsspin alone should be -3. He can't go all the way down. That's just one example.
    Would I sound paranoid if I wrote that it seems to me that COP was based almost entirely on the skills of EP, IS and TT/MM? That is, those that came up with them used them as their primary (only?) models and that's why they'e cleaning up now?
    There has been speculation that the change in the pair SBS jump rule was specifically to help TT/MM and hurt S/Z.

    Yeah, I've always thought that Plushenko's spins were the weakest part of his skating. Bad positions, travelling, not very fast, and the single most horrible spin element of any male skater in the last 30 years, the dread Plushenko-straining Y (I refuse to call it a B-mann and thankfully it seems to have been relegated to the dustbin of history).
    I don't think his footwork is that great either, mostly really simple stuff and kind of draggy.
    What he's good at are b) jumps, actually his second biggest talent and a) looking like he owns the rink, he does that better than any male skater I've ever seen.

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    I agree the new COP system was made to be Russian-friendly and I say that even as a big Irina, and mild Navka/Kostomarov fan.

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    So having looked at the breakdown for the scores in the short for both Lambiel and Plushenko I still think the problem is not what the skaters are doing but how the judges are marking it.

    Giving each program a base value is the easy part and from what I can see the base value for Stephane and Plushenko differs by 0.5 by virtue of the fact that Evgeny has one level four spin compared with Lambiels equivalent level 3. So I guess what I am wondering it why, for two equally good skaters (different styles obviously) and error on the axel aside, do the PCS differ so much for the two skaters? For example lets look at the transitions, Plushenkos highest score for transitions was 8.5 as compared with Lambiels highest of 7.75 and I just question the validity of such a difference because it seems to me that these scores should be much more similar for both skaters than they are. As it stands, it is hard to imagine how Lambiel is going to get close to Plushenko in the SP even with a clean program.

  12. #57
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    DG - Thanks for the run out of the scoring. Yes, Plush's spins are better than Lambiel's according to these scores.

    I think what the posters are asking: What is it about Plush's spins that they deserve higher levels than Lambiel? His sitsspin alone should be -3. He can't go all the way down. That's just one example.

    Joe
    Hi Joe. I don't think the quality of the positions is a factor in the calling of the level of the spin. That's a quality of execution issue that should be reflected in the GOE. I haven't seen these programs yet, so have no opinion about these specific performances and whether in my own opinion the GOE's were given appropriately or not.

    DG

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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    I agree the new COP system was made to be Russian-friendly and I say that even as a big Irina, and mild Navka/Kostomarov fan.

    Under the old system Buttle would not come even close to all the medals he collected over the last 2 seasons. Old system rewarded jumps a lot more than artistry and his missed 3 axels would've kept him at top 8.

    Emmanual wouldn't be able to climb back from 7th or 8th to win 2 gold medals.

    So I would be tempted to say that the COP was developed with Canadians in mind.

    That was a ridiculous observation, wasn't it? I think you guys are a bit paranoid

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    Very ridiculous since everyone know the new system was pushed by the CANADIANS after the OLys Fiasco to help their skaters compete with the best jumpers lol!
    Last edited by curious; 01-24-2006 at 02:30 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    Hi Joe. I don't think the quality of the positions is a factor in the calling of the level of the spin. That's a quality of execution issue that should be reflected in the GOE. I haven't seen these programs yet, so have no opinion about these specific performances and whether in my own opinion the GOE's were given appropriately or not.

    DG
    Hi DG - I am not arguing about the scores on spins. I am questioning what level they are. I want to know what Level 4 spins Plush gets as a skater who is known for weak spins. It just isn't sour grapes. I think anyone with a sense of figure skating knows Plush is not the greatest spinner.

    He jumps higher than Lambiel, but not necessarily higher than Joubert. All have a quad toe and a quad toe combo and all have good runouts (except for faults). Base should be the same and GoEs could be different, if height is a factor.

    The footwork too, is about the same, but Lambiel's 'spanish dancer' is throughout the whole routine - not just the beginning and ending.

    take a check of these things when reviewing the tape. I know I will.

    Thanks again for the breakdown.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 01-24-2006 at 08:42 PM.

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